Gay marriage opponents, listen up: I've got a secret to tell you

The BBQ Pit
421

Huh. That’s not the impression I got from this website: No on 8

It doesn’t even sound like the expectation of winning would be as high given your own post:

and yet you didn’t take “the threat more seriously”? Seems odd to me.

You don’t have to bite; I’m not baiting you. And I don’t necessarily think that the reaction (protesting) is inappropriate; I just am not seeing the point in it. Perhaps it’s to fuel debates like this one. Or to get people talking. But that’s the thing. I don’t see much talking going on. I’ve now asked twice to be pointed to some coherent summary of the arguments or given a coherent summary of the arguments. It hasn’t happened. Admittedly, I’ve found your posts to be quite level-headed in this thread, but I didn’t click on any of your links. I generally don’t follow debate by link unless I’ve asked for one. Maybe I wasn’t here for all the talk about this, but it would seem to be pretty easy to point out previous thoughtful discussions on this. I may not be the only one who is interested.

As to what I would do, as Cisco has so eloquently pointed out, I’m not in your position, so I can’t know what I would do in exactly your position. That said, I’d like to think that I would try my best to understand what the other side was saying and try to have an open dialogue.

I get that you’re angry. That’s been said multiple times.

I don’t know how you could know if I’ve been looked down by a lot of people. There’s all kinds of discrimination out there. But I’ll take your word for it that I don’t understand what you’re going through.

It’s interesting that you’re bringing up the religious right in your discussion. Their behavior is often poor even without discrimination. I’d be more interested to see what would happen if the average religious person got their rights taken away. Perhaps that would be more instructive about what kinds of character people show in times of adversity.

Thanks for pointing out some of the heinous events that have happened. I wasn’t aware of those.

As for your rights guaranteed under the US Constitution, I don’t think it’s as simple as you claim. Some of the arguments in this thread have shown that. I found Musicat’s post about how the right might be asserted at the federal level, but if it lost, it would be a devastating blow.

I really do appreciate your post about your feelings, I really do. But I’d also like to hear about some of the issues involved in this process as well.

422

You are reading snark into my post where none was intended. You’re right that I don’t know your situation. Perhaps you have been treated like shit for most of your life just for existing, I don’t know.

No problem.

I’m well aware that the court may not acknowledge that we have equal rights and that decision would hurt us greatly. I will not back down from the position that we do have those rights though.

I honestly didn’t realize how much bottled rage I had until recently. I’m normally a pretty level-headed, logical type of person. I’m working on getting back to where I can discuss these issues from that viewpoint. Are there any particular issues you’d like to discuss?

423

First, I’m not certain what position you think I’m in. I’m in a long-term relationship with a man, and should I decide to later date a woman, I’m a citizen of a country in which I could marry her without any legal troubles. For me, as for many people, this isn’t about fighting for my rights. It’s about fighting for what is right.

I appreciate that you want a level-headed argument, so I’ll do my best to engage in a dialogue with you. I’m not entirely certain what you want, though, so let’s assume this will be a multi-step process. Please feel free to ask for clarification on anything I say.

What’s the point of all this hubbub? The same point there is to protesting any injustice - it’s an important step in getting things changed. Hopefully, awareness of the issue will change some minds and get people who were indifferent involved. Hopefully this will lead to a reversal of the vote in 2010, followed by the reversal of bans on gay marriage in other states, eventually leading to the legalization of gay marriage in all of the States.

Why do I think gay marriage should be allowed? I’ll admit that I see it in terms of the opposite - why shouldn’t it be allowed? I think it should be for obvious reasons - consenting adults deserve to have the freedom to marry those who they love, for reasons of social legitimation, personal fulfillment and legal accomodations. I believe that not allowing marriage based on sexual orientation is discrimination. I don’t believe that any of the reasons put forth by the opposite side are valid. Again, I’d be happy to talk to you about any of those reasons.

424

I was tempted to take this back to your thread where I originally asked the question, but that’s faded, so with apologies to Cisco for hijacking, I’m still interested in understanding what people hope to accomplish in protesting today.

With all the pent-up rage that you’ve noted, there’s bound to be incidents like the heinous ones that you’ve mentioned. That can’t be helpful to your cause.

And it has the whole potential to make people look like they were poor losers. . .like if McCain supporters held protests. What would be the point?

But perhaps there are other reasons I’m not seeing because I’m not there. Could you enumerate them?

On preview: I see that Helen’s Eidolon has posted a response. I’ll respond separately.

425

I’m not entirely clear on what point you’re trying to make, here.

What do you think would be an appropriate reaction to losing the vote against prop 8?

Between this thread, Indistinguishable’s Prop 8 thread, and CutterJohn’s pitting of his CEO, there are currently twenty five pages worth of discussion on this topic in this forum alone. Between these threads, every argument for and against gay marriage has been hashed out a dozen times or more. I’m truly perplexed at how you can say that you “don’t see much talking going on.”

426

One thing I agree with Heffalump & Roo about is that I don’t really see the point in street protesting. It doesn’t change anybody’s mind, it just preaches to the converted; at best it could be argued to raise some awareness (though there aren’t a lot of people not aware of the issue) and allows gays and allies to let off some frustration.

What I would rather see instead:

  • more initiatives to propose state and federal level non-discrimination laws (many people do not realize that you can legally be fired in many states for being openly gay)

-dissemination of concise literature via bulletin boards and info booths with information and websites that make reasoned and logical arguments rather than pleading victimhood

-televised debate of the issue with reasonable participants- not just “taking it for granted intelligent people agree with us” jokes on The Daily Show (and I love TDS) or the usual sideshow people (Big Gay Al versus Bible Beatin’ Betty, neither of whom seem capable of even recognizing a good argument to support their cause) on pseudojournalist cable news shows but actual coherent, informed people capable of reasoned discussion and not emotional appeals and ranting

-perhaps the biggest one- MORE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW WHO PAUL CAMERON IS AND THAT HIS STUDIES (which are at the bottom of the vast majority if not all “studies show gays are 482% more likely to murder their partners while strung out on heroine after molesting their foster children” arguments) ARE COMPLETE AND TOTAL AND DEMONSTRABLY BULLSHIT. Even Bill Bennett (a conservative opponent of gay marriage and gay adoption) apologized for using one of Cameron’s studies once it was brought to his attention, and he’s so easily refuted that to google his namebrings up refutation sitesbefore his own site, and yet Arkansas and other states have used his “studies” to ban gays being adoptive or foster parents.

Unfortunately I haven’t even met many gays who know who Cameron and the Family Research Institute are, and watching Anderson Cooper the other night a FRI spokesperson was brought on as if he was representing a genuine organization that isn’t just stricly organized to fund homophobic bullshit studies. The opposing guy tried to bring this up but it’s hard to do in a 3 second soundbyte. I wish that Cooper or John Stossel or even O’Reilly (who is fairly moderate on gay issues) or The Daily Show even would do an expose to expose and dispel the lies of this one organization, because while the Phelps give better geek show airplay they’re no real danger except to perhaps a few people whose relative’s funerals they picket; NOBODY TAKES THE PHELPS’S SERIOUSLY, BUT THEY TAKE CAMERON SERIOUSLY.
The Civil Rights marches were more than a generation ago before media was 24/7. They also involved black people, who were organized into family units and churches and communities- gays aren’t, in fact their families are often the least supportive of them. Stop marching. Express outrage through voting, through disseminating factual information, supporting the HRC and other gay lobbying organizations to propose anti-discrimination legislation, by learning the facts and how to argue them, gaining airtime for people and arguments who (to paraphrase Heinlein) appeal to the self interest and the logic of others rather than their better nature or pity. We are activists, not victims.
And don’t do drugs and always wear your seatbelts.

Mini soapbox:

The Cameron issue is a big one with me because while Phelps is a total nutcase and identified as such even by most hardcore evangelicals, Cameron is fucking dangerous and has done and continues to do *real and widespread legal * harm. The man was censured and expelled from the American Psychological Association not for “challenging the orthodoxy” as he and some of his supporters claim but for demonstrable LYING in his research and making fraudulent claims. No respected peer-reviewed psychology or child development or sociology publications have ever published his works- they’re published in vanity publications like Adolescence (a journal whose peer review process is “did the check clear?” and that Cameron himself has slammed) or in pamphlet forms published by Cameron’s own institute, and while he usually has copious endnotes and bibliographies the incendiary claims made are ALL SELF REFERENTIAL; for example, he’ll cite a study that shows gays are 10 x more likely to be pedophiles or commit domestic violence but never mention that
1- he himself wrote that study
2- the means and methods of his statistical analysis are somewhere between ridiculous and flat out made-up
3- not a single solitary statistical sociological study ever undertaken by any researchers who were not funded by and in the employ of an ultra-right wing homophobic organization have ever demonstrated anything remotely similar and
4- in fact the studies that have been undertaken by respectable and objective researchers at top level research institutes in the U.S. and abroad have show demonstrably the opposite (gays are less likely to be pedophiles or to commit domestic violence and that children raised by lesbian and gay male couples have no more gender confusion and are no more likely to be gay themselves than children raised by heterosexual couples or single parents).

427

I joined in an anti-8 march last week in San Francisco. We marched up Market street… and then down Castro street. Boy, we really showed those 'phobes on Castro street what for!

But seriously, the march’s route shows what the purpose of the march really was: not to change minds, but to rally our base and get people motivated to participate in the political and social projects that really can make a difference in gay rights.

428

That’s really interesting, Sampiro, and I didn’t know much about him or that organization.

I’d be interested in passing around a link about it (yes, I know, preaching to the converted, but dissemination of information helps) if you’ve written anything somewhere official or have a site to recommend.

429

I should perhaps add to my post above a relevant biographical fact:

That I’ve always lived in the Deep South and or small towns and I’ve never lived in a place with a large and or active gay population. While Atlanta is pretty much Dixie Castro and other large cities have gay ghettos, in the smaller cities and even in Montgomery so many of the people are so damned terrified of Mama-Daddy/their boss/their preacher finding out they’re gay that they’re not going to go on camera or on record, and the ones who will are, while usually well intentioned, often less than effective.

430

I just got back form a Stop the H8rally in Saramento. It was very invigerating and the message was clear, we will win and we will win the right way, by winning hearts and minds and not by destructive infighting and anger at our opponents.

Oh yeah, I am str8 but this fight is about everyone. In reality they have taken away EVERYBODY’S right. And this cannot stand.

431

That’s very true. We often see the lcd of gay people on tv, especially reality shows and news stories of gay pride events, etc, because they’re the attention seekers putting themselves out there. It doesn’t occur to a lot of people that we’re seeing the lcd of straight people in these same situations.

BTW I grew up in a small southern town too, and I never met an out of the closet gay person until I moved to Phoenix in my early 20s. It was completely unheard of. But now with time and distance I know some of the people I grew up with and went to school with are gay.

432

Sorry if I didn’t answer before, with thousands of posts over multiple threads it’s easy to get confused on who said what when.

I don’t disagree with you.

The main difference between this and McCain is that civil rights shouldn’t even be up for a vote. That is a large part of the frustration right there. I think a lot of the reason is that people are rightfully angered and need to vent it. It’s also a way of keeping people focused on the goal. The street protests are not all that’s happening, legal challenges are being filed, we’re prepping for 2010 to get this repealed and so on. But those things don’t give people any real outlet to express the frustration and anger over what’s been done to us.

I acknowledged before and will again, protesting may not be the best way to do this. It may not help. For a lot of people though, it’s feeling like you’re doing SOMETHING and that is better than doing nothing.

433

Small Ohio farming area for me. I was probably in my mid-late teens before I found out that what I was is called ‘gay’ and that there were others like me.

434

Reposted for ease of reading.

435

These heinous incidents you speak of are very few and far between. There are a lot of peaceful, angry, passionate people out there doing what they can to make their voices heard, now that they can’t vote again until 2010.

Many people find protests empowering. There is solidarity. There is fellowship. There is media coverage. There is catharsis.

Today I heard encouragement for those still in the closet to come out and make their presence known, to stand up and make a stand for justice. To be acknowledged and seen and heard. I heard encouragement to maintain the intensity and to not stop fighting.

I did not pick up this cause on Nov 5th, but I did kick things up a few notches. And even for those who did just get inspired to get involved for the first time, it is never too late to speak up for what is right.

436

I just got back fom a Prop 8 protest in downtown Boston. Of course it won’t really do anything; as far as I’m aware, there’s nothing left to do, locally, and there’s no reason to believe it would have any effect on voters in other states. It does rally the supporters to get involved in the larger cause, though, and it lets me feel like I’m doing something, not just sitting by quietly while other people are denied their rights. It’s like that quote, “…and then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; and then they came for me . . . and by that time there was no one left to speak up.” It’s important to me that I speak up.

437

Well, I assumed that you were in the position that you were asking me to imagine. . . being gay and being engaged and not being able to marry. I assumed this because I thought that you had insight into the position. But as it stands, I don’t know how it feels. . . but neither do you!

Why would you ask me to imagine something we both haven’t experienced and are unlikely to experience?

Let me clarify. I’m not trying to understand your personal feelings. I was looking for a summary of the issues.

You mentioned that you underestimated the seriousness of the threat, but in most things I’ve read, people weren’t expecting the win. Those two things are not compatible.

No such thing. People don’t control their reactions. It’s what people decide to do with their reaction that counts.

This may be inconceivable to you, but I didn’t even think to open the pitting of the CEO thread thinking that it might be about Prop. 8. I did open the Prop. 8 thread early on, but at that time, it was about the loss. I also checked GD recently and not much debate going on there that isn’t rehash that I’ve already read here. But thanks for pointing them out. I’ll check them out.

Well yay! So I’m not as crazy as some people here would have you believe.

One thing that I would have liked to have seen was a website like President-elect Obama’s transition website with all the social networking sites linked. And then a website stating the issues in clear and concise terms with detailed information on next steps and how people can get involved (without protests).

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that you didn’t answer before. You did answer. You said:

which to me, was a pretty unsatisfying answer, but an honest one perhaps.

It’s not that it may not help, it could potentially hurt and I would think that’s something the effort can’t afford at this point.

Yeah, that’s why it’s disappointing to see that there isn’t more organization to get mobilized around a more constructive action. I’m sure there’s a lot to do if something will be happening in 2010. That’s only 2 years away. I would think there’s lots to do between now and then.

That’s a poor argument. One heinous act is bad. The fact that there aren’t more doesn’t make it better.

You need a protest for that? You could go to a 4th of July community event and get that. . .and liquor too.

What’s lost in that is the message that you seem to want to convey. The message hasn’t gotten clearer, at least for me.

438

A-fucking-men!!! :mad: (Bad but unintentional pun duly noted)

The quotation you want is from Pastor Martin Niemöller:

I mentioned in the other Prop 8 pit thread that on a Christian forum I’m a member at, one of the Protect Marriage crowd urged, seriously so far as I can tell, that “since the purpose of marriage is creating families and having children, childless marriages should be abolished.”

The deprivation of rights by act of law is not just some people’s fight. It’s everyone’s fight.

They have sown the wind. And they will inherit the whirlwind.

439

I don’t really know what more you’re looking for. The message is on the signs everyone carries. Your argument seems to be that because there are on occasion a few bad apples, that people shouldn’t protest. The bad apples are going to go out and pick fights whether or not there is a protest.

440

That’s reap the whirlwind, isn’t it?