You know that, and I know that. I want to hear HIM own up to that, or, barring that, to see his head explode trying to avoid it.
You are my hero for the day.
Careful. You’ll lose magellan’s respect if a sad joke is your hero for the day…
He’s using semantics to hide his homophobia, but in a 10 page thread where he’s forced to give answers, his homophobia comes out. He does not want gays to be equal because he believes they are deviant and inferior, and he fears them. All the word games in the world cannot hide that truth.
Well, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt as to 1) wanting to have a real discussion and 2) not being an idiot. I see that I may have been wrong on both counts. Just to be helpful, here’s our preceding exchange:
In other words, marriage has certain rights attached to it. It does so because we’ve attached them through our laws. Similarly, we can attach a set of rights and privileges to “domestic partnerships”, whether they be exactly the same or different.
How in the world this lead to at the top of this post is baffling. Care to explain?
Wish as you may, but you’re not getting anywhere neeeeaaar my back. Deal.
That’s pretty much what Orval Faubus and Bull Conner said. Look what happened to them…
Define what you mean by:
-homophobia
-deviant
-inferior
and I’ll tell you if you’re right or wrong and why.
Or just continue in your closed-minded world where your self-worth is tied to the necessity of an anti-SSM stance being equated with homophobia and bigotry.
Sad. Sad. Sad.
Keep wishin. It might happen. It might not. And if it were to happen, society could change their mind. After all, homosexuality was supposedly completely in ancient Greece, but society saw fit to change that. For now, though, deal.
I would go for 1 and accept 2 if I had to.
(I know it wasn’t directed at me in this specific case)
I’d love to see you give it a try, please.
(Not-so-thinly) Veiled physical threats from anomymous people living 7000 km away from my house really mean nothing.
But just in case you try, don’t come back weeping “the homophobes hit me, they’re so mean, I just wanted equality”.
If you want to use the democratic process, use it; I’ll do the same when my turn comes.
If you want to be feared, be ready.
Oh good lord, that’s not a physical threat. I hate to speak for jayjay, but being trampled by the crowd has been a metaphor for inexorable societal change ( in the U.S. at least ) forever. Or at least a good long time.
If anyone was actually physically threatening you, I suspect it would be far more “scary” to menace you with something meaningful as opposed to trying to physically run over you. Which is a rather hard thing to do.
Lordy.
What he said. Are you stupid or just disingenuous, Aji?
I have to say though if he were shaped like a scalene triangle it might be easier.
You are afraid that including gays in marriage will taint or dilute marriage. You are afraid that, if children hear that gays are married, that they will think it’s normal, and you don’t want that. In fact, you fear it. You fear the effects of gay marriage on society. Lots of fear directed at gays. QED.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10425777&postcount=438
bolding added by me:
Children need “guard rails” keeping gays and straights apart, so that they can realize that being gay is a deviation from the norm. We want to be sure that they know that being gay is not normal, the normal way, the way to the fullest human experience, is NOT being gay. The only way to be fully human is to procreate.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10426704&postcount=526
bolding added by me:
You fear that marriage is an ideal that would be degraded by allowing gays to participate. Gay unions are “less than ideal”… they “fall short”… they “dilute” the specialness of the word… they “make it a less desirable institution.” These all indicate that you find gays to be inferior.
My self-worth? What the hell does my self-worth have to do with any of this? I’m straight. My stake in this is both personal and as an American. I have gay people who I love and for whom I want equality, and you do not. I know how legislation like Prop 8 makes them feel, like second class citizens in their own country, and it makes me sick. It’s unAmerican to take away people’s rights based on fear and bigotry. Listening to your smug rationalizations for 10 pages makes me sick. Watching you gloat to jayjay about how he doesn’t have the right to marry in California makes me sick.
I’m open to the idea of sharing the ceremony of marriage with them, and open to them having equal protection under the law. You are closed to sharing marriage with them, and closed to the idea that their lives are as fully human as yours. I don’t see how you can say I’m the closeminded one. Unless you define:
-closeminded
-self-worth
Because they do not mean what you think they mean.
Sad. Sad. Sad. Also, sickening.
That’s their way though. “Oh my gosh, now I’m the victim! I most certainly will not give you equal rights, evil doer you!”
Is anyone buying this: “just an innocent question, but if we gave you some of the same rights as marriage wouldn’t you just shut up and go away? We’re being nice.”
Is anyone actually falling for this tactic? The New Blacklist. Corporate America is bowing to anti-gay Christian groups’ boycott demands.
Don’t give these maniacs an inch. Not. An. Inch.
They’ll tell you they are all about equal rights. “Just give us this one name. Marriage. It’s so innocent and soft and fluffy. Just give it to us.”
Don’t fall for it!
You mean like this?
No. The thing to do isn’t to just deal with being denied civil rights, it’s to never stop working to change things. Which reminds me, since my state’s all good to go on the matter (over four years of SSM, and the last petition failed to muster the 25% support of the legislature to even be sent to the voters, as Massachusetts had the presence of mind in 1919 to decide not to allow every damn fool idea to be voted up or down by the masses), where’s a good place to send whatever tiny donation I can muster over towards California or wherever it might do the most good?
:rolleyes:You know, you and others keep saying that I fear gays, and that I’m a homophobe, but the fact is I’m not. I just have to laugh. I have gays friends, I live in SF for Heaven’s sake, I spent a lot of time at my friend’s place in the Castro, I support gays in the military, gay adoption and everything else, except marriage, I even went on vacation with a bunch of guys and volunteered to room with the one guy who was openly gay who was fairly new to the group. So you can keep repeating it to make yourself feel good about your position by demonizing me, but you’re building yourself up—through the position you hold—on a foundation of sand.
Now to the words. Someone how I knew you wouldn’t just choose a dictionary definition and say “when I use the word THIS is what I mean”. Instead you seek to keep it vague so you can craft a definition that weaves in value judgements. So you can obfuscate and slither and continue to demonize under the thin cover of attempting to hold a dialogue. Disappointing, but not surprising.
That takes care of “homophobia”. As far as “dilute”. It’s simply a fact that the more shapes you give to marriage the less tied to any one shape the word is. That’s inarguable. You can certainly argue that the dilution might be okay, or beneficial, but not that the meaning won’t be diluted.
On to “deviant”. Since you were incapable of providing a definition, here:
Now while homosexuality IS natural, it is deviant. Maybe what gets a bee on your bonnet is that the word also has connotations of things that are bad. But they are not necessarily attached to the word and that is how I use it. You know, like in the dictionary. Homosexuality, deviates from the norm. Do you disagree with that? In the name of Darwin, how can you disagree with that?
This is funny, again in a sad kinda way as it is so dishonest. You’ve read my explanations, yet you choose to misrepresent what I wrote, and you read. Anyway, I find gay people to be “inferior” in no way. The ONLY distinction I’ve made has to do with SSM. And, as I’ve explained, I do think the union falls short of the ideal. As does a single-parent household. Now each of those is perfectly capable of providing a wonderful and nurturing place to raise children. But they both fall short of the ideal of having a mother and father raise the child. This is not new ground, you know. This is not some novel opinion. Yet, no doubt you’ll go right on demonizing me in order to make yourself feel better about your own position. You’ve put yourself in a place where you all those who oppose SSM MUST be bigots/homophobes/stupid/evil or you have to rethink your position.
Evidently that’s beyond you. That’s your problem, not mine.
Cry me a fucking river. Can you not fucking read? I want them to have all the rights. I wish they didn’t feel badly, because they shouldn’t. Not here in SF. They can live together, grow old together, visit each other in the hospital, inherit, etc. How the fuck does not being able to be married stop you from having happy days and a wonderful life with the one you love? Except if you choose to make that the issue your happiness is based on? And you know what, fuck you and your “smug rationalizations”. I got shitty with that shithead because he got shitty with me. Funny how that works, huh, Shithead Number 2? So, go stick your head in a toilet over anything that upsets your delicate constitution.
You are. You MUST demonize me. And “fully human”, what the fuck is that supposed to mean. Usually that saved for those who believe that homosexuality is a bad “choice” or its all about “dirty sex” or gays can’t love each other the way heteros do. So until you can find where I’ve promulgated any of those views, shove your self-righteousness up your ass.
I’d imagine it comes from this:
If straights enjoy a fuller human experience than gays, then gays must enjoy a less full human experience than straights. I suppose you not have meant to imply that gays are less fully human than straights, but don’t be surprised when people get upset that you claim that they can’t enjoy as full of a human experience as you do. And I hope that this new motivation in the gay community manages to change the discourse away from accepting this implied condescension towards homosexuality.
You are admitting that they are being denied a right - by birth - that you and I are granted by birth. And you are mocking them for it. Disgusting. PLEASE explain to me how that is anything short of bigotry and discrimination. Do you support the denial of rights to any other group randomly selected by birth?
Hey, I’m holding up my end of the bargain. Want to try doing your part? Say, by speaking to the topic at hand instead of evading it?
I’ve been called worse things by better people. If you’re going to engage in name-calling, at least make the effort to support your assertion.*
*Hint: “He doesn’t agree with me” is not a proof of “He is an idiot”