I have a catholic friend who had a son (with a jerk) and had to move in with her parents when she divorced. She adored her son. He was/is a great kid. But when she finally realized she was gay and fell in love with a woman, she gave custody of her son to her parents. I’m sure her catholic upbringing has something to do with it. I felt she should have kept her son, but now it seems she is just perpetuating a stereotype that makes it look as though she’s become inferior now that she’s “out”. What a shame.
No. Noone has tried to take our son from us. Although my father, who doesn’t believe I’m gay, wanted me to use the lesbian angle against my ex to try for full custody.
Oh, yeah, I meant to address ivylass’s concern about het parents each providing a “unique perspective” and example of how to interact with opposite gender people. However, several posters have already addressed the issue of aunts, uncles, and friends providing examples of other-gendered people for kids of homosexual parents.
I’d like to add, however, that if my own straight parents were the model of how the genders interact, then we’re all in a mess of trouble. I’d rather my son watch two loving dykes (his mother and her partner) interact or two queens (me and my hypothetical boyfriend) interact than use my constantly bickering and arguing parents or my similarly-acting brother and his wife as examples of how to treat those you love.
The issue is teaching children to be mature, responsible and, hopefully, caring individuals. It is not how to fit their personality into a stereotypical gender role.
And to UDS’s contention that the risk of discrimination and prejudice is relevant, I say nonsense. If that is a relevant criteria, then no black parents should ever be allowed to adopt because it is inevitable that their children will face discrimination and prejudice at some point.
I want to share my personal experience here.
I was raised by my gay father, and I’m a male heterosexual adult now. As I grew up I knew, when the time came, where I stood on the sexual spectrum, and the fact that my father is gay never had an impact on my own sexuality. I just knew that my father was different than a lot of other people, and that his sexual preference had no bearing on his ability to raise me.
In retrospect I think I have turned out rather well, college graduate with no emotional problems, and I am confidant in who I am. Today my father is one of my best friends, and I wouldn’t trade my upbringing for anything else.
From my background I fail to see the case on why gay people cannot raise children. I am offended by such arguments in that I am indirectly told that my childhood was unacceptable, and that heterosexuals should have raised me in order for me lead a “normal life.”
In having been raised by a gay person I was allowed to have an open mind about sexuality, in addition to other discriminatory issues, and if there is one thing that I want to impart it is that sexual preference has no effect on a persons ability to love and raise children.
Your comment here makes me think of Anne of Green Gables, the story of an orphan taken in by a woman and her brother. I’ve read several other books from that time period that mention the same theme. I’m not sure if this was actually a common practice- unmarried adult siblings taking in a child to help with farm work- or if books just make it seem as if it was (although it does sound plausable when thinking of quakers) but do you think a child who was in that situation would be missing something, too? What about kids who are raised by their own adult siblings after their parents die? (Dave Egger’s youngest brother, for a real example; Party of Five for a fictional one) Sure, they’d be living with a man and a woman, but not ones involved in a romantic relationship.
If the people raising the child treat one another with respect, I don’t see that it matters what sort of relationship they have.
Your comment here makes me think of Anne of Green Gables, the story of an orphan taken in by a woman and her brother. I’ve read several other books from that time period that mention the same theme. I’m not sure if this was actually a common practice- unmarried adult siblings taking in a child to help with farm work- or if books just make it seem as if it was (although it does sound plausable when thinking of quakers) but do you think a child who was in that situation would be missing something, too? What about kids who are raised by their own adult siblings after their parents die? (Dave Egger’s youngest brother, for a real example; Party of Five for a fictional one) Sure, they’d be living with a man and a woman, but not ones involved in a romantic relationship.
If the people raising the child treat one another with respect, I don’t see that it matters what sort of relationship they have.
Hi Homebrew
With respect, I think there’s a distinction. People generally suffer from racial prejudice because of their own (perceived) racial make-up. A child placed for adoption either is or is not a member of a group that is going to suffer from race discrimination; his adoption is not going to change the fact.
True, a white child placed with black parents (or vice versa) minght suffer a disadvantage that he would not suffer if placed with parents of the same race. This, too, is a relevant factor in considering the interests of the child.
Just to be clear; is it your belief
(a) that a child placed with gay parents is likely to suffer no discrimination, or
(b) that any discrimination he does suffer will not affect his interests, or
© that, in the interests of upholding principles of fairness and non-discrimination, we should ignore any detriment to the child’s interests, or
(d) that any detriment to the child’s interests will be trivial compared with all the other factors that go into assessing the suitability of a particular proposed adoption?
I’ve said it before in these threads but…
I was raised by my father and his long term partner. I ended up pretty normal. The household was a loving, caring enviroment.
My upbringing was almost more in tune to “leave it to beaver” then most of my straight-raised friends. The only differences…
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We had a living room of gay men in our house everytime Miss America was on (all of them making some of the bitchiest statements I’ve ever heard). Great fun.
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Any excuse for a gathering was good enough. Thanksgiving… sure. Christmas,. call everyone. 4th of July… hang the red, white and blue streamers and fire up the BBQ. Mothers day… oh yeah. It didn’t matter. They loved having people over, serving GREAT food and having a good time with friends. I’m sure many families do this, but not with such flair. Martha Stewart is nothing compared to my dads.
Other then those things, it was all pretty regular.
The only drawback for me was my father/s and most of my father/s friends came out in the 70’s. They were pretty active in the scene in the early 80’s. They all got AIDS. They are now all dead.
Considering most of his friends were around the house at every get together and often just came by for dinner, they became like family to me. I lost my family in the course of a few years. One after the other. My father being the last to go about 8 years ago.
As for the upbringing though. I wouldn’t have changed it for the world.
I am male.
I was raised by two gay men.
I love the ladies.
The only thing I think I got “sexually” out of the deal was not being afraid of my own sexuallity. I don’t have the baggage some straight guys have about doing things (or not doing things) because it might make them appear gay to friends. I have no problem having physical contact with other guys. I’m secure in my sexuality as a straight man and I don’t feel I need to prove it to anyone. Give me a hot pink Miata, hell yeah I’d drive it around town for the day.
My brother (one year older then me) was raised by my regular, everyday straight mother. He on the other hand has a real problem with male to male contact. I often wonder if he thinks he might turn gay because his father was -which of course is just nonsense.
My contention, UDS is that first and foremost, the life-long benefits of being in a loving, caring family far outweigh the possible temporary prejudice the child may face. It would be better to put up with a handful of bigoted comments and live with loving parents, than to shuffle from foster home to foster home never feeling attached, secure, wanted or loved.
I also think that any discrimination a child raised by gay parents faced is wrong and the parents should fight it. They should force the schools to enforce rules against harassment. They will also teach their children ways to deal with the harassment.
Hi homebrew
I entirely agree with you that the many advantages of being adopted by a loving and caring couple are likely to outweigh the disadvantage of suffering from prejudice because the couple concerned happens to be gay.
I also agree that there are other ways to protect the child from prejudice; refusing to adopt is not the only measure which can be taken.
My point has always been that the interests of the child are the paramount consideration and that, if the applicants’ sexual orientation seems likely to affect the child’s interests, it is right and proper to take this into account. But in my view taking it into account will rarely, if ever, lead to a decision not to adopt, when other more significant factors favour adoption.
The point remains, however, that the adoption process is and ought to be centred on the rights of the child and that QueenAl’s statement in the OP that any prejudice “is the fault of the society, not the child or their parents”, while true, is irrelevant to the issue of what is in the best interests of the child. And we certainly cannot exclude consideration of whether the child will suffer from prejudice on the grounds that the prejudice ought not to exist, so we will act as if it did not.
Okay, I feel the need to fill the void named above. I do not agree it is a good idea to allow gay couples to adopt and here is why. Please note that these are my opinions and I am entitled to them, no matter how close-minded you may think I am. I have gone over this issue time and time again in my head, and I believe I have come to the following conclusions.
First off, I have yet to meet a truly happy homosexual person, and I have met several. I have known several who were alcoholics or drug addicts, hardly something one can endorse if they wish to raise children (of course, alcoholic and drug addict heterosexual parents are no better, but bear with me here). Most of them are also just truly angry, bitter people with severe emotional problems based around the fact that they are homosexual. People with the level of anger I have witnessed will only pass that on if they raise children.
It is my experience that homosexuality is a mental disorder. I do not believe that it is natural, nor do I believe that it is a genetic trait. Every homosexual person I have met and gotten to talk to have experienced some sort of sexual abuse as children, which (once they have gotten some professional help) has been shown to be the root cause of their homosexuality. They can then go on to lead “normal” heterosexual lives.
It is my belief that if someone is this emotionally disturbed, they should not be raising children. This goes for anyone who has severe emotional problems. None of these people should be allowed to have children. I think if we have to get a licence to drive a car, carry a concealed weapon, or get married, we should have one to have children as well. However, that is a topic for another thread. Please excuse the hijack.
Well, that is the opinion of someone who is against homosexuals raising children. Now it is everyone else’s turn to pick me apart. Have fun.
(Deep breath. Determination to express self in moderate terms.)
Yes, if you are severly emotionally disturbed then, gay or straight, this tells strongly against you in any sound adoption assessment process.
Lord Ashtar’s experience, though doubtless interesting, is anecdotal. It does not accord with my (equally anecdotal) experience.
An important issue of public policy such as this cannot be decided on the basis of anecdotal experience. In the absence of some kind of professional or clinical consensus that all gay people are emotionally disturbed, I think we have to assess people - gay and straight - on the basis of an individual assessment of whether they are emotionally disturbed.
(slight hijack)
Seven, thanks for your story, and I’m sorry for your losses. I haven’t lost anyone that close to me, but I’ve had enough friends on the cocktail to have an inkling of what you must have gone through. Peace.
Oh dear, Lord Ashtar. Just so you know, Ryu is coming for you, and he’s wearing pink. Heh heh heh.
For the love of an outmoded crutch fater figure, have you read this post at all? Have you met Esprix? Broaden your horizons, dude.
Lord Ashtar, I beg you to click on at least one, if not all, of the links in my sig line.
Thank you.
Esprix
Andros, it is my belief that homosexual people have some serious emotional and psychological problems. It is also my belief that there are many heterosexual people with similar problems. Anyone who has mental problems such as these, I believe, should not be allow to raise children at all, either biologically, or through adoption. I know this is not a plausible suggestion, but I’m simply stating it as a wish that all parents would be emotionally and mentally mature enough to handle the awesome responsibility of having children. I’m not suggesting that public policy be based solely on my “anecdotal experiences.” Just a wish.
RobertLiguori, I can not say that I have met Esprix, as I do not know who he is. That would seem to me to be a dumb question. And unless you speak of Ryu from Street Fighter 2, or Ninja Gaiden, I’m afraid I do not know of what you are speaking when you say he is “coming” for me. Perhaps you should consider that there are people out there with opinions that differ from you. That does not make their experiences any less valid or their horizons any less broad than yours. It just means that they are different. Maybe you should “broaden your horizons,” dude.
Esprix, my opinions are based solely on my life’s experience. I highly doubt that reading a few internet links will change that. But I will be happy to check out your links when I get home later tonight so I can be sure to give them all the attention they deserve.
Lord Ashtar, I can respect the POV that you’ve adopted from your experiences, and the fact that you are relatively evenhanded rather than hotheaded in your views. But your problem falls on one major difficulty: stereotyping. You have generalized from the gay people of your acquaintance, and while I have no reason to doubt your experiences, I think even a cursory look at this thread, much less any personal acquaintanceships you might make from here, would lead you to see that your generalization is invalid.
Yes, for a variety of reasons there is a higher proportion of gay people who have emotional or social problems that would be contraindicators for successful parenting than there is of the population as a whole. Negative generalizations like yours and expressed much more strongly are one of the prime factors resulting in such problems. And it would not surprise me if one of our gay members reacted irately to your comments – simply because that battle has been one they’ve been fighting for several decades now.
I share that wish. I know at least one heterosexual couple whose behavior makes me fear for their children’s mental and emotional states. I also know of one lesbian couple who have done a wonderful job of raising children. And I’m confident that either of us could find examples of couples gay and straight who are extremely effective and who are totally dysfunctional if we exerted ourselves.
Lord Ashtar, thank you for sharing your opinions.
You certainly are entitled to hold any and all opinions. The problems arise when these opinions then encroach upon other people’s lives.
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Please clarify roughly how many, and where you met them, and how you know they weren’t happy.
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First off, what by your terms is an alcoholic or drug addict? I’ve taken drugs before, (as have most of my peers), and drink most weekends when I go out (though I very rarely get drunk), does that mean I have a problem? It is true, that a person who has been discriminated against because of their sexuality, may have a slightly increased likelihood of having ‘severe emotional problems.’ A person who has been discriminated against because of their colour, religion or nationality may have the same increased likelihood of problems. But would you advocate witholding parenting rights from all of those people, just because a few of them have problems?
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Psychiatrists all over the world would disagree with you. However, the causes of homosexuality is really a subject for another thread (of which there are probably several already).
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I am so not going to get into a debate over abuse and sexuality. To do so within this topic, it would have to be reduced to brief, bland generalisations that wouldn’t do the topic justice.
However, I do have one question. How come these people knew you so well that they confessed something so intimate? How come I know literally dozens of homosexual people on a level of deep friendship, and only one has been sexually abused? This is something I’ve heard before, from a couple of straight people, and it is truly bizarre.
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I believe that people (straight or gay) who are emotionally disturbed in any way need help, and if their problems impact the way they raise their children, either extra help should be given with the care of the children, or possibly, the child should be moved to a more suitable home until the problems are remedied. ‘Severe emotional problems’ don’t automatically make for bad parents, although they certainly don’t help.
The problem is, that none of your arguments apply to gay couples who wish to adopt. If they were shown to have severe emotional or addictive problems, they would never get through the adoption process, whatever their sexuality. So saying that ‘some of the gay people I’ve met are fucked up’ is not relevent to adoption (which is what you said in your first paragraph), although you could argue (contentiously) that it was relevent to gay people and their biological children.
Well, I will. I raised the question about whether abuse could potentiate one’s latent homosexual tendencies some time ago, and had a plethora of useful information, largely from Montreal’s Dynamic Duo, including both anecdotal and statistical evidence, refuting the concept. So I can guarantee that Lord Ashtar is way off base here.
No. People who have been made to believe that they are gay by having enjoyed molestations and who are “really” straight with a slight tendency to enjoy homosexual contact as well can be healed of the psychological problems the abuse caused, go on and lead a healthy heterosexual life if they so choose. But that is not the case or condition of the overwhelming majority of gay people.