This is Shodan’s brain - :wally
This is Shodan’s brain after he reads the obvious explanation - :smack:
Here goes Shodan off to read thru the ATGG threads.
Thank you, kind - sir, isn’t it?
Regards,
Shodan
It’s good to know that my little ol’ opinion could stir up so much conversation. I guess having someone there to offer the opposite opinion can be a good thing, eh?
Espirix, I read through some of your ATGG column and, while interesting, I saw nothing to change my mind about homosexuals.
I would like to come straight out and say that I have no problem with them, but that might make me sound like a biggot (I ain’t got no problem with them nice colored folk down the road. They make some durn good cotton). I have had heated arguments with my father and my brother on the subject of homosexual marriages (I’m for, they are against). I feel that a homosexual person should be able to do anything a heterosexual person can do (although I can not think of much, save adopting children, where their rights would be more restricted than mine).
But, when we come to the subject of adopting children, we have to remember that this is not about making sure everyone has equal rights. It is about the children. Making sure they have good, safe homes. If that means that someone has to get the short end of the stick to protect those who can not protect themselves, then so be it. Now, before you stick me in the same crowd as Hillary Clinton and Tipper Gore, don’t. They apparently didn’t have enough challenge in raising their own kids, so they wanted to raise everyone else’s. I only want to make sure that the children will have parents to fill the role.
I see that the question of how many gays have I met has been brought up a time or two. I don’t know. Might be able to count them on my fingers and toes. Then again, might not. Can’t really remember. 23 years is a long time. Five come to mind right off the bat. Were they alcoholics and drug addicts? Well, two of them have been hospitalized for alcohol poisoning, one is dead from a heroin overdose, and the other two are on antidepressants. Does this represent a fair cross-section of American homosexuality? Of course not. But it’s all I’ve seen. It’s all I know. Therefore, it is on what I base my opinions.
It was also mentioned earlier that I was entitled to my beliefs, so long as they don’t trample on anyone else’s lives. I beg to differ. The Constitution of the United States offers me freedom of speech. This allows me to speak out whenever and wherever I want on whatever subject I choose. I am also allowed to work toward whatever goal I believe is right. In this case, it is that I don’t believe homosexuals should be allowed to raise children. That’s America for ya, folks. Like it or lump it.
Now, I’ve given this a lot of thought. If I’m for gay marriages, then why am I against gays adopting children? All things being equal, I don’t think you should be allowed to raise a child if you can’t have one naturally. Just look at is as nature’s (God’s, whatever) way of telling you not to try it.
The flaming against me may again recommence.
So lesbians, who could conceivably have sex with a willing male to get pregnant, are OK to adopt children, but infertile heterosexuals are not. Got it. Clearly a very well-thought-out opinion.
This is, um, not true. Ask the owners of this message board, if you don’t believe me. Or, for that matter, come into my home and say that atheists are bad people, or something, and see what happens.
Actually, I’m in complete agreement, for one reason - the straight couple is married.
I few years back, I wrote an article on gay adoption and gay marriage. In the course of writing the article, the research I reviewed indicated very strongly that, in the aggregate, the best interests of the child is better served when s/he is raised by a married couple as opposed to an unmarried couple, gay or straight.
Since gay marriage is currently prohibited (given its recent provenance, I doubt any studies exist concerning children and civil unions), it is likely that the married couple will be the better living situation for the child than the gay couple.
Of course, in my article, I used this research as support for my thesis that gay marriage is necessary for the best interests of the children of gay couples (as such children will be around, whether adopted or birth children).
Sua
So if a gay male couple conceives a child with a woman, by IVF, turkey baster or even natural means, they are then OK to raise that child? They have had that child naturally, and one of the parents is the biological father of that child, so what then? I have a child conceived by natural means, so does my sexuality prevent me from raising her properly? Appealing to what nature (or God) ‘meant’ to be is a big straw man in times of heart transplants, antibiotics and IVF.
The examples you cite don’t strike me as the ‘severely emotionally disturbed’ people you spoke of earlier. An amazing number of people are on anti-depressants. This can be a sign of a major illness or not. It would count against them as adoptive parents, but only because the rules are so strict*. The ones hospitalized with alcohol poisoning - well, this depends on the circumstances. If it was when they were fairly young and it hasn’t happened again, then it doesn’t count for much. If it’s part of ongoing alcoholism, then it does. The heroin addict, of course, is a clear example of an unsuitable parent.
Five homosexual people in 23 years (I understand, the only ones that immediately sprang to mind) is really not many. That makes it sound like you must be living in a place that doesn’t have much of a gay population, or your lifestyle doesn’t put you into contact with gay people very much. This increases the likelihood that the gay people you do meet are not highly representative of the larger majority of homosexuals. This is not to discount your experience, but to say that the pinch of salt to be taken with it is about the size of Manhattan.
People have disagreed with you in the same non-hostile language that you yourself have used. That is not ‘flaming.’
You may disagree with me, but I agree with you.
I think you are distinguishing between anecdotal evidence, and a general impression. Certainly anecdotal evidence is based on something, even if it isn’t worth much. General impressions can be based on even less than that - second hand opinions, hearsay, mistakes, whatever.
Lord Ashtar has an opinion, based on his experience. And, as I mentioned earlier, it can sound condescending to me to say, “Some of my best friends are ______, and so I think…”
Which is why it is annoying me so much that the Search Function keeps kicking me out when I try to locate Esprix’s ATGG thread. He says he’s got some research, but I can’t get at it. There were some links posted earlier, but they are in Swedish. :mad:
I am not doing a very good job with my posts. What you said is what I meant.
I think I am going home and use my better computer, and see if I can locate Esprix’s thread.
Think I’ve done enough of that for now.
Thanks to all who have posted.
Regards,
Shodan
Shodan -
Do a search on Esprix’ user name, then pick a thread, any thread, and click the links in his signature.
Shodan, I’ve asked a Swedish friend of mine to have a look through that research - obviously not for a full translation, but to try to pick out some of the statistics and translate those. I’ll let you know whether she manages to do it or not.
Nice quote, good to bear in mind.
I daresay you didn’t read enough, then.
Except have children? 
Your tolerance has limits, I see.
I totally agree. Please explain to me how a same-sex couple, if treated to the same measuring stick of rules and requirements as any opposite-sex couple and passes, would not be a “good, safe home.”
Perhaps instead you ought to view these people as troubled as opposed to homosexual and troubled.
OK, so you fully admit that your limited experience and exposure cannot in any way represent a fair representation of the gay community, and yet you willfully and blindly stick to it anyway as your basis for opinions.
Which is worse - ignorance out of ignorance or ignorance out of intent?
Well, as mentioned, then hurrah for lesbians, and pity us poor gay men.
For Shodan’s benefit, I will include my sig line in this post.
Esprix
Thank you, kind sir.
It may be a while before I can be back here - people seem to have a lot of questions for you. Four threads, no less, and each a whopper.
Regards,
Shodan
Actually, despite the snide imprecations to the contrary, the current studies, as well most of us know here, back the contention that Lesbians make fine parents, whereas gay adoptees the jury is still out.
In fact, the jury is mostly in Sweden – still awaiting the translation.
Lord Ashtar, you can search through the multiple threads about gay adoption to catch up on the argument. Your anecdotes are yours – but consider that meeting a gay person every four years is pretty narrow. Can I suggest a trip to NYC?
Pldennison says:
PLD, one of the abridgements of speech on this board is threats, veiled or otherwise, as you well know.
Did I threaten somebody? Nope. Or is the only result of “seeing what happens” a violent one? Nope. Grow up, Ace.
PLD, I don’t recall accusing you of threatening anyone. I agreed with your point, that there are abridgements here, and repeat offenders should be especially wary of crossing that line and maybe chill out a little themselves. Perhaps you’re reading into what I’m saying?
::SIGH::
Mostly I love this state, but sometimes ya gotta wonder. If this man co-habitates with his mate, he will not even be allowed visitation.
Sarcasm on::
“We’ll cure them homo’s, one way or the other”, stated Magistrate Mark Riddoch of Idaho
::Sarcasm off
Well, I’ve plowed my way thru three of Esprix’s four ATGG threads, with one more to go, and have not hit on what I am after - links to studies of those adopted by gay people, and what the long-term effects seem to be.
I did want to ask SuaSponte a question while I was back to click on Thread Four.
You posted -
Were you able to identify the factors that led to the less optimal outcomes for the children of unmarried, gay-or-straight couples? And would those factors have been addressed by gay marriage?
I mentioned in passing in an earlier post that it seemed to me that committed relationships between gay men were both less common than heterosexual marriage, and even more likely than heterosexual marriages to break up. There is even some anecdotal evidence in the ATGG thread (posted, IIRC, by matt_mcl), who made reference even to a disparaging attitude toward monogamy in the gay world.
I am willing to state, and to back up with cites if necessary, my belief that children raised in a stable home where the parents stick together will tend to do better than those in homes where the parent goes thru a large number of short-term relationships. It would be interesting to see if civil unions between gay partners last any longer than heterosexual marriages seem to do.
I will certainly grant that a divorce rate approaching 50% is nothing for straights to brag about, and I am willing to believe that lesbians do better than many in keeping their promises of “till death do us part” (Ann Heche and Ellen DeGeneres notwithstanding), but it is possible that the volatility of gay male relationships could be a factor in selecting against them as adoptive parents. And it is hard for me to believe that the only thing between gay men and monogamy is passage of a law in Hawaii or Vermont, and that once this happens, the male population of San Francisco will be out shopping for curtains together.
Anyway, off to read the last ATGG thread. And a vote of thanks to Esprix for being willing to do this, and do it for so long. Even when, in some cases, the naive and innocent Shodan is learning somewhat more than he really cares to know. :eek:
Regards,
Shodan
The full text of a study on lesbian parenting:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/Depts/GENDER/opting.htm
A summary of dozens of different studies into gay parenting:
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaylaw/issue6/Mcneill.htm
These studies all seem to have reached the same conclusion: there are no significant differences between the parenting styles of homosexual parents and straight parents. For example, from Bigner and Jacobsen (1992):
And from Kirkpatrick, Smith and Roy, 1981:
Another summary of gay and lesbian parenting, though with more focus on lesbian parenting:
http://www.apa.org./pi/parent.html
And:
This report also has somewhat of an answer to Shoeshine’s earlier question about why homosexuality was removed from the list of psychiatric disorders (I wasn’t ignoring your question, Shoeshine, I just didn’t have an answer at the time):
Hope all this has been some help in providing some hard data.
Thank you!
The ATGG, although interesting, are loooooong, and I am not finding what you have so kindly provided.
I will have a look-see.
Regards,
Shodan
Nicely done, Queen! I stand impressed.
Esprix
Shodan, you mentioned a number of times that you are looking for research on “children adopted by lesbians and gays”. Stop looking, you won’t find it. The whole point of the thread is that there are no countries (apart from the netherlands as of last year and sweden as of a few months ago) who allow same-sex partners to adopt children.
What you can however turn up are statistics on children raised by same-sex parents.
I am still looking around for an english translation of the study I linked to. You were wondering who did the study, it was done over a period of (i think) about 3 years, by a committee appointed by the swedish government. The members included everything from members of the swedish lgb rights organisation, members of the church, academics, people who work with the adoption agencies, child psychologists, peeople from organisations like uhh… “save the children” or whatever its called, etc. So a rather varied bunch, with neither for nor against people in the majority.