By coincidence, Michie found and posted to the Pizza Parlor a link to an article on tolerance by Daniel Taylor, professor of literature at Bethel College, St. Paul, MN, in the Jan. 11, 1999, issue of Christianity Today. [The article is copyright; I’m extracting only the last four of about 30 paragraphs for quote here.]
I just realized that, in my concern for how Christians see and treat gays and the reverse, I’ve helped to hijack my own thread. So, as Mr. Visible asked, about ten posts back, can people suggest concrete, useful steps we as individuals can do to help to improve the lives of these kids (and gay people generally, where applicable – but let’s at least try to stay focused!:)).
Yea, because that could possibly result in them having a happy, fulfilled life, rather than killing themselves at age 16 because nobody would give them the least scrap of hope. I’m done with you. Your position is monstrous.
Push for strict non-harassment policies in the public schools. These can and do work when applied properly, but they are very, very rare.
I was lucky enough to go to high school in a district containing a school with such a policy, and even more luckily for me it was not an ordinary neighborhood school but rather an alternative program that any student in the district could apply for admission to after at least a semester at their area high school.
My area high school probably seemed like a Hollywood dream come true to the many healthy, affluent, white, heterosexual students there, but I suspect it was miserable for everyone else. The constant mockery of disabled students by other kids and the dirty administrative secret of classrooms heavily segregated by race bothered me nearly as much as did the frequent abuse I received at the hands of other students. On one memorable occasion I was physically lifted off my feet while attempting to walk to my study hall and thrown into a large cafeteria garbage bin. I started agitating to transfer to the alternative school, and despite parental resistance and a few pathetic bones tossed to me by the administration (if the other kids won’t let you sit anywhere at lunch, you can eat with the social worker in his office!) I was soon successful.
And what a difference that made. My new school’s non-harassment policy explicitly forbid all forms of physical violence and threats of harm, verbal abuse “whether it attacks an individual personality or on the grounds of race, sex, sexual orientation, background, political or religious beliefs”, and any graffiti that violated these rules. This policy was printed on the back of all our student IDs (I dug mine up to quote from it just now), and we were all required to learn it and take it seriously. We were also expected to help police each other. “Hey, watch it, harassment!” was the usual response to anyone who seemed to be getting out of hand. That was usually enough. Those who ignored such warnings could be reported to the administration. And if they did not seem properly repentant or were repeat offenders, the administration could (and more importantly did) severely restrict their privledges or even throw them out.
This worked. It really, really worked. Bullying like that cjhoworth describes did not exist and would not have been tolerated for a moment. There were occasional problems with petty teenage gossip and grudges, but there was not one fight in the more than three years I attended school there. Once there was almost a fight, but it was broken up before any violence occurred. Even then the whole situation was so unsual and upsetting for the student body that the principal had to call an emergency assembly so everyone could discuss the issue and be reassured that things were okay.
I firmly believe that policies like this are a crucial part of the solution not just to the problems of homosexual youth, but the problems of many young people. Students need to be told that it is not okay for them to bully their peers in any way or for any reason, that all bullies will be strictly punished, and perhaps most importantly that even students who are not bullies themselves have the responsibility to try and prevent the bullying of others when they see it rather than encouraging or ignoring it.
As I believe I’ve done my duty to the central purpose of the thread a ways back…I’ll have to follow my gut (it’s certainly easy enough to see…) and make some brief additional comments to His4Ever. [The idea, folks, is that everyone interested in the main topic can garner a little something from them, even though they may be DIRECTED at His4. In that sense, they are relevant.]
His4, reflecting on the example treated above, I think you may give yourself too little credit. And as we only know you through what you write, the result is that we Dopers form a false impression and respond accordingly.
You portray yourself as a compulsive witnesser. Yet you show more patience and courtesy in your posts than I would expect from same.
I’ll bet if some gay kid came stumbling up to you in tears, black and blue from being bashed, you would let your heart take the lead. You would comfort him, first and foremost. And if, ultimately, you felt a responsibility to share your views on the subject of homosexuality, you would do so gently, briefly, humbly, and without expressing a tone of condemnation.
I can’t see you trapping a sobbing, frightened kid in your car while you deliver your best “fire and brimstone.” That’s just a stereotype.
Now I know, Mr.Vis and several others, that this degree of kid-glovedness toward Bible-quoters strikes you as something like a betrayal of the cause. And you know, from other threads, that I am a gay man who regards himself as proud–and even a fighter for our rights.
I’m more than happy to squirt some verbal acid in the direction of those who lead the public parade to our immolation. To me, that means the Robertsons, the Falwells, Fred Phelps, La Sheldon old and young, Trent Lott et al, etc. It doesn’t mean everyone and anyone who holds an opinion on the subject that I consider wrong.
Yes, I do disagree with His4. I do think public policy in the schools should be framed by purely secular considerations of what sort of attitude toward gay people is more in accord with well-accepted scientific findings, and with a society of civility and respect for others. That means no discrimination, no harrassment, and no tolerance for bullying and bashing. It also means that we refrain from demonizing those who (in our estimation) are stubborn contrarians. (I’m not saying that Mr.Vis or the others mentioned above go that far.)
I think most gay people, including the kids, are strong enough, and resilient enough, to give others the right to be wrong–long as they give us the right to turn and walk away.
I’ll try to make this my last comment in this thread.
I absolutely agree with zero tolerance harassment policies, in this case. I mean, at the very LEAST, these bullies are not learning how to get along outside of high school.
I don’t think any students have to like each other, however, what is wrong with telling them-live and let live? Billy may not like Joe, but that doesn’t mean Billy has the right to kick Joe around the locker room.
What happens when these bullies get a job, and they find out their boss is gay? Will they do the same thing? How about a coworker?
Simply, to people like His4ever, my reply would be, “That may be what you believe, HOWEVER, his/her sexual orientation is none of your concern, and as such, if you really find this person so distasteful, just do not associate with him/her. If you have to, I will insist you be polite, but do NOT go out of your way to tell him/her how sinful he/she is. That’s NOT your job.”
Please don’t! 
That was a masterful statement of the sort of bridge-the-gap that I’ve been desperately trying to do for the past three years, Scott, and I for one am deeply touched by the thoughtfulness you put into it, and the tact and compassion you showed.
I think most people who come across as anti-gay are not haters, but merely people who are not aware of the facts behind what being gay is, what it’s like to feel as you feel, and so on. They see themselves as people of love and compassion, or strict reason, or whatever, and don’t grasp the reality of the impact of what they say and do. More than anything else, it’s incumbent on the gay people and those who speak alongside them, as CJ and I and several others on this board do, to grasp that concept and try to “translate” and not assume that what is being said is from malice, when it may simply be from ignorance.
And, of course, it’s incumbent on us Christians who witness to a God of love who commanded us to show love, to do just that and not something amounting to “I’m telling you this for your own good.” :smack:
I like very much what Lamia had to say. Dispelling myths about gay people is another way we can help – I must have tried to do just that a hundred times on this board or the Pizza Parlor. And that’s particularly effective when a gay person that you know talks quietly with you about what you think you know that’s wrong. People with input into company HR programs have a golden opportunity to work job security for gay people, or at least equal access, into the company policy, perhaps a little at a time. And this can be done by questions: “Hey, our competitor’s policy says they’ll grant three weeks vacation after ten years, while we make them wait until twelve. Should we match their policy? And they include religion and sexual orientation in the antidiscrimination list; shouldn’t we have them in there too? Ours just lists sex, race, and national origin now – I’m sure the Board doesn’t want us to look like bigots compared to them!”
I try, but I simply can’t fathom the lack of compassion it would require to tell an injured and frightened child that they are a depraved and perverted sinner. Maybe someone can help me with this, but I don’t see any foundation in that abyss that I can build on.
**
I have yet to see a zero tolerance policy that was good. Zero tolerance really just means zero thinking on the part of administrators and teachers.
Marc
I would try to stop them. If there were too many and I was outnumbered I’d probably yell at them to stop and let them know I was going after help. Of course, if my husband was with me, he’d probably say don’t get involved with anybody’s fights whatever the cause of them or you might get yourself beat up. He’d probably stop me. But by myself I would try to help stop the beating as best I could.
I do agree with you guys that there shouldn’t be any tolerance toward kids beating up kids. By all means, make rules that bashing isn’t acceptable, BUT at the same time don’t make rules telling people what they can and can’t think about somthing.
I remember awhile ago hearing about this “Thought Control Bill” they were trying to get through Congress that would make it a crime to even express the opinion that homosexuality is wrong. We can’t have the rules degenerating into something like that, but as I said beating up gays and being verbally abusive isn’t right and should be banned. Of course, I know there are those who would consider it to be verbally abusive to express the opinion about it that I named above. So there’s a fine line there.
Anyway, I’ll leave you guys alone now as I’m sure you’re tired of hearing from me. I originally hadn’t intended to talk this much in this thread. Just planned to make the one comment about parents and their rights to teach their children according to their beliefs. Have a nice evening.
In Christ,
His4ever
Emphasis very much mine.
You are correct, IMHO, that being bisexual means, among many many many other things (how accurate is it to define sexuality only in terms of wanting to have sex?;)), desiring sexual activity with both genders.
Being bisexual has nothing to do with actually engaging in sexual activity. I’ve known I was bisexual since November of 2000. I’ve been sexually active since September of 2002.
By that same logic, you know as much as I do about sex life of the gay teen Polycarp asked you about: nothing. That I’m bisexual or cj is heterosexual or matt is gay says absolutely nothing about what they have (or haven’t, for that matter) done with men or women. And IMHO again, that gay teen’s, or my, or matt’s, or cj’s sex life isn’t any of your business unless and until they make it such (unless, of course, you’re their medical practitioner, or something like that). And that same courtesy is given to you.
I think what you mean here (which I clarify for two reasons, both of which I think you’ll understand if you remember back to a previous conversation we had about being a clear and precise as possible:)) is “even if you aren’t physically carrying out these desires”. “Engaging in a desire” seems to me to be rather redundant … if you have a desire and you’re aware of it, you’re engaging in desiring, and in turn engaging in that desire …
Now that I’ve written that Gordian Knot…
Absolutely true. In addition, I might just want to go on a date with a man/woman, play cards with them, go see a movie, study together, or any number of things y’all straight people do. Relationships, let’s remember, are about being with a person … both in the sexual sense and in the “just being with them” sense.
Thank you, both for your “my opinion as to” comment and your refrain from commenting. I think when you first joined this board that “my opinion” part would have been totally absent and you’d have said something more like “since you didn’t ask me if The Bible tells you you’re a sinner and going to Hell but I still love you and you can repent!”
I for one would like you to keep on posting here (the board in general, not necessarily emphasizing this thread or forum), because I think we are coming to more of an understanding of what you think … and I hope the same is true on your end:) Just remember that while it might just be “a religious issue” for you, you’re talking about people’s lives. Being a teenager is hard enough without being told you’re an abomination.
[sub]Still looking for that post I referenced earlier that Tris doesn’t remember writing and only one other person remembers reading…[/sub]
Oh, I didn’t mean I wasn’t going to post her anymore! Just that I’d let you guys go on with this particular thread. I really had only intended to make one comment. I try to stay away from most gay threads but do participate once in awhile.
I go on spurts, I post or awhile then get tired of it and take a break then come back, you know. You may do the same thing.
Nighty night all. :o
In Christ,
His4ever
His, I’d like to see a site for this. I have never even heard about something like this. They couldn’t even do it if they wanted to, it directly violates the First Amendment.
(Oh, and iampunha, you ARE an abomination, but not because you’re bisexual. But because you’re a :wally )
[sub]just teasing, mods[/sub]
No wonder poor Tris was so confused…he didn’t post in that thread at all, and maybe didn’t even read it.
His, this is a remarkably good example of the sort of lies in the name of Christ perpetrated by some people who claim to be Christian that I warned you about back when we first “met” online. What they’re describing is the proposed ENDA – the Employment Non-Discrimination Act – and two affiliated bits of proposed legislation, that would make it illegal to refuse to hire, to fire, to deny equal benefits to, and a couple of other things, people specifically on the basis of their sexual orientation. (And religious institutions were specifically exempted in the draft law.) The related things were the idea that you couldn’t discriminate in housing (with the exception of rooms or apartment in your own home) on that basis and the federal hate-crimes bill. Not one word about thought control or criminalizing the expression of opinion – simply that you cannot take certain actions that historically have been used to hurt gay people. If Esprix or Gobear has a good job, and does a good job at what he does, is it right for his boss to fire him because he finds out he’s gay? If you own a 100-unit apartment complex, do you think it’s right for you to be able to put up a sign, “No gays allowed”? These are the sorts of things that bill was intended to combat – but the so-called Religious Right spread the lie you quoted above about it and managed to get it defeated.
I don’t mean to nag you about this stuff – but I think you see the problem, from what I just said. And any little bit I can do to combat people spreading hatred in Jesus’s Name is something I am absolutely committed to do, for reasons you know as well as I do.
I don’t know what kind of brain fart I had that attributed that post to Tris when it was someone not even with a similar username, which would be even somewhat of a defense.
Anyhow. Thanks for finding it. I knew I wasn’t dreaming it up, but I thought it’d been either in mpsims or GD and was having NO luck in my many searches (sorry, widdle hamsters. punha still loves you. See? Here’s some hamster food:)*).
Anyway. Tris, if you felt injured or such by my misattribution of that post to you, I apologize.
Now then. How to help gay teens. The situation we currently have reminds me (says the guy whose worst subject in school, ever, was history) of the situation we had in this country up until the … mid 70s, maybe? Discirimination/physical abuse and such … many of the things we’ve been talking about as plaguing black people in this country (save, perhaps, the suicide rate, as I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any sort of numbers on black youth suicide rates during times of more duress than we have now, though I’d be rather surprised if they existed). As such, perhaps a look back to the times when this country was starting to make things easier for them, and further examination into both why the good stuff worked and the bad stuff did not would be fruitful (I’m sorry for that pun, y’all. Really. Or then again, maybe not…;)).
*[sub]What the hamsters don’t know is that we’ve replaced their food with Folgers Crystals. Let’s see if they notice the difference.[/sub]
I’m truly sorry, but I don’t believe you. Some of it comes out of my own experience, when good, well-meaning adults stood by while I was beat up and did nothing. Some of it comes out of what I’ve seen of you on this board, including your response to agentfroot’s GD thread speculating on what Christ was like as a teenager, and the devotional thread you posted this Christmas which called people who show understanding and sympathy traitors to Christ. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that what you posted is what you thought I wanted to hear, or what you hope you’d do if confronted with that situation. Quite frankly, when I first described the situation, I was thinking I’m pretty sure I’d go wading in to break it up, but at the same time, I’d probably be thinking, “I’m going to get killed!” I even wished I could have amended that question to a kid getting verbally abused, not beat up to remove the element of physical danger which would put a great many people off. In fact, I think it would probably put anyone with common sense off, but I never have had much when it comes to some things.
People who are different threaten the status quo, whether it’s because they don’t walk or talk like everybody else, or like boys when they should like girls or vice versa, or don’t follow the same religion almost everybody else in town does. As such, they become a lot more likely to become targets for abuse. It’s also easier to look the other way, because, “After all, they’re not like you and me, so you and I aren’t at risk, right?” Standing up for someone, speaking out against injustice entails risk. As some of us know better than others, telling someone what they’re doing is wrong is not exactly a way to get them on your side.
His4Ever, you’ve said countless times that you believe homosexuality is wrong. This thread is the first time I’ve heard you say bullying is wrong, and that was only after you were confronted with a lot of evidence, including some coming from heterosexuals and asked a couple of direct questions. Bullying is a lot more common than homosexuality, and a lot more accepted in modern American society. I can also honestly say I’ve never seen anyone directly harmed by a homosexual. I have been harmed by bullies, and I’ve seen others harmed. I also know bullying kills. It’s also not limited to schools. As I’ve said here, it goes on in churches, too. I’ve even seen a little of it in my old church, although it doesn’t tend to happen more than once if I’m around. Old habits – defending people from bullies, that is – die hard, especially if the person harboring them has no intention of killing them off just yet.
His4Ever, I’m probably posting this too late for you to see this this Sunday morning, but next time you’re at church, watch the way the teenagers there interact with each other, the girls, as well as the boys. Girls can do just as much damage as boys, only it’s more subtle, but the message of unacceptability comes across just as loud and clear. If you see one kide getting picked on or shut out more than the others, or hiding in the background or separating herself from the others, you’ve got a prime chance to make a believer out of me. Act. Ask why she’s being picked on, and, even if you happen to agree with the reason, speak out as firmly against the cruelty her peers are showing her as you do against homosexuality here. Yes, it is risky and frightening. So is a situation I found myself in last week when all I could do is pray that a teenager I’ve taken under my wing on-line had not committed suicide. On the other hand, being a Christian is also supposed to be risky. I think one thing even you and I can agree on is that the reward is worth the risk. The teenager, is OK, by the way.
Respectfully, if sorrowfully,
CJ
I’m sure that this will be an unpopular post, but…
When I was in high school, I got beat up occasionally, laughed at very often. Was I a gay teen? No, I was just your usual nerd. I liked computers and science fiction, and the popular kids thought that was funny.
I don’t see why gay teens need so much attention in the issue. There are a ton more nerds than gays in your American high school, but you never see anyone saying that something has to be done about their hard times, there are no calls for “nerd/popular alliances” I’m sure that the amount of teenagers who suicide over getting laughed at for D&D or not getting a date are more than those who can’t find acceptance for their sexuality, but the usual way to deal with it is just to accept that these things are a part of high school.
Anyway, I just don’t understand why gays just can’t grit their teeth and bear their high school years like nerds do with few problems. In the end, most nerds grow up to be perfectly happy with no hangups. In fact, I can actually look back and understand why the popular kids thought it was fun to pick on me.
UnuMondo
**
That would be a very interesting fact, if you could prove it.
They don’t have to be. A strict non-harassment policy can protect everyone. There were no nerds being beat up at my high school. Not me, not my friends, not even the guy who used to stand in the windowsill during lunch and sing opera while juggling, wearing a cape and shoes he’d glued fake fur to so they’d be “Hobbit feet”. In fact, he was quite popular and everyone was sad when he graduated. He was very entertaining.
Uh huh. I suppose you would have told the Little Rock Seven to just stop whining and running to the National Guard for help, too.
Other than the vast numbers who commit suicide that you already mentioned?
I suspect you don’t know that many surviving grown-up nerds anyway. At least, it sounds like you don’t. The adult geeks and nerds I know are mostly lovely people and some seem quite happy, but they also tend to be unsure of themselves, uncomfortable meeting new people, afraid to speak to people they do not know well, and have difficulty forming trusting relationships either friendly or romantic. People do not emerge from years of abuse without any hangups about themselves or dealing with other people.
But Lamia I am an adult nerd. You seem to misunderstand cause and effect here. These nerds you know aren’t uncomfortable and unsure of themselves because they got beaten up, but rather they were beaten because they were already that way, they were incapable of participating normally in high school social life. Had they not been such losers, they would have fit in better.
Look, getting picked on is a natural part of high school, and I don’t think anything should be done about it. The people who from despair kill themselves have emotional problems that aren’t going to be solved by feel-good clubs. These angst-filled examples would find some reason to fall into a pit of depression no matter what the social environment was like. The majority of people get over high school just fine, both gays and nerds. And most nerds understand that the popular kids were right to pick on them, after you graduate and see how the high school social world works, it looks totally natural.
UnuMondo