Gay Teens: A Debate

[andygirl]

I am a lesbian. I am a lesbian all of the time. It does not switch on or off. It does not matter if I never have sex again. I will still be a lesbian. It is not about sex. It is about love.

My mother used to make the love the sinner/hate the sin distinction. Our relationship has irreperably suffered. I’m sure it’s very easy for some of you to think, “Oh, I could make that distinction, tell my child that I still loved them even if I don’t approve of them being gay,” but guess what? We get the word, we get the message. This isn’t like getting drunk, this isn’t like getting caught shoplifting. If my mother loves me “except for that” then she does not love me. It is that simple.

I spend far too much time mourning the children of cowards, people who invoke an authority and hide behind it because they’re too scared to think, too scared to realize that they are the ones responsible for their children’s misery.

I am sick and tired of burying my friends.

[linguist]

Andygirl–

HUG

[leander]

My friend just came out over Christmas. (No, he’s not a teen, he’s a thirty-something professional.) His mother no longer talks to him. I know every day he is in pain. It kills me. I never could understand how the love of a parent could somehow be outweighed by the anger/resentment/fear/disapproval/etc.etc. they might feel. IMHO, it takes an enormous amount of courage for people to come out; I only wish the parents had as much courage to accept their children despite what others may think. People who “judge” homosexuality and further an agenda of “gay=sin” must hold some responsiblity for the climate of homophobia, hate and fear in our society.

---

Andygirl - I don’t know you, but I am truly sorry for your loss. However, you clearly have friends here who care deeply about you and your loss. I can only hope their love brings some consolation.

[gobear]

Also, why is it more acceptable for me to look on David Copperfield with lust in my heart than gobear?

No offense, but I think David Copperfield is icky, Russell Crowe, however…

[musicguy]

linguist,

That was a beautiful post.

andygirl,

I’m very sorry for the loss of your friend, and the pain that you are going through.

[iampunha]

*Originally posted by His4ever *
Just thought I’d let you know, Crafter_Man, that you’re not the only one around here who believes homosexuality is a sin.

You might have chosen a better time to say that than when we are mourning the death of a friend of andy’s. How in the world … you must have the balls of The People’s Republic of China to pop in here and say that. Exactly what species of littly birdy popped into your head and told you that would be a good idea? Do let me know so we can make it extinct.

But you’re right. They won’t change our minds and we won’t change theirs.

There is a place for closed minds … I believe some of your faith refer to it as Hell.

And I suspect there may be a few people in this country who’d love to make it a crime to tell our children that this conduct is wrong but I pray that never happens.

You know what? If and when (AND WHEN, in this case) the result is suicide, I would dearly love to make it illegal to tell your children that people are abominations, that they are going straight to Hell, that they cannot be normal. Right now nothing would give me greater joy than to know that sort of filth would not leave the minds of those who so mistakenly think it.

However, one small things precludes that. This is (or rather it is supposed to be) a free country.

If it does, there goes our freedom.

And where is Daryl’s? For that matter, where is the freedom for those who aren’t straight? Hmm? Where the hell is my damn freedom? My cousin Greta is gay; where’s hers? Vice President Cheney has a daughter who’s a lesbian and therefore not allowed to marry the consenting human adult of her choosing (as if it’s really a choice to love someone:rolleyes: ), yet the lowliest single man in this country can go to a JoP with any random woman who feels like it and they can get married.

Freedom, huh? Yeah, if you’re straight.

And how about my freedom from your religion? When was the last time you saw agnostics witnessing door-to-door on a Sunday morning, trying to get people to go to church? When was the last time you saw a website condemning Christians to some awful afterlife for their beliefs and actions? When was the last time we had a prominent public figure who didn’t occasionally make reference to his or her belief in God? When do I get to be free from this stuff? What, do I have to go live in a cave with my fingers in my ears?

Incindently, I’m very sorry to hear about the young person who committed suicide. His parents could have and should have still loved him, without approving.

So tell me, H4e. Do you think it would be much better for him if they told him “well, we don’t approve of your existence, but …”? If you do not approve of part of who I am, you do not approve of me. Sexuality isn’t something you can peel off someone. There’s no “Bisexual as of November 2, 2000” tag on me that can be ripped off and return me back to being straight. It’s as andy said. I exist; part of that existence is my sexuality. How would you feel if someone rejected you because you’re straight?

I really try to be nice to you, but it’s posts like these that make me wonder if gobear is right, especially since you brazenly say, IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE’S DEATH, that nobody will ever change your mind.

Nice compassion there, “Christian”.

[iampunha]

*Originally posted by His4ever *
(assuming they’re Christians who beleive the Bible)

As opposed, of course, to Christian who believe in God. I think enough of us have seen the difference to be able to spot one without even seeing a picture.

[sub]Talking the talk, walking the walk, and yes, their quack does echo. It kills.[/sub]

[matt_mcl]

I really try to be nice to you, but it’s posts like these that make me wonder if gobear is right, especially since you brazenly say, IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE’S DEATH, that nobody will ever change your mind.

Nice compassion there, “Christian”.

I associate myself with what Iampunha had to say.

How dare you. How dare you. Woe to you. If you can persist in this barren obstinacy, if you have the cruelty to argue that his parents were justified in pursuing the course that lead to a boy’s anguish, despair, and death, then there is no redemption for you.

Have you at last no decency?

[matt_mcl]

I really try to be nice to you, but it’s posts like these that make me wonder if gobear is right, especially since you brazenly say, IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE’S DEATH, that nobody will ever change your mind.

Nice compassion there, “Christian”.

I associate myself with what Iampunha had to say.

How dare you. How dare you. Woe to you. If you can persist in this barren obstinacy, if you have the cruelty to argue that his parents were justified in pursuing the course that lead to a boy’s anguish, despair, and death, to the face of a person who cared for him, then there is no redemption for you.

And make no mistake - that’s what you are doing. We have all heard the platitudes, the justifications, the rationalizations, the falsehoods. We have lived them. We have seen them. We have picked them up off the floor, cut them down from the ceiling, buried them, mourned them.

And you can fling your scornful piety at the feet of the bereft? Have you at last no decency?

[MrVisible]

I believe that His4Ever and her ilk are going to die someday. They’ll be dead, and their bizarre, spiteful, ignorant and baseless cruelty will die with them.

With all the information that’s out there on gay people, with all the truth that counters their insidious lies, their mindset is doomed. The light of day has broken through, the dawn to this long night of ignorance and persecution, and the creatures of darkness and ignorance are running scared. They feel trapped, cornered, and are lashing out.

It’s their last gasp, their final spasm as they realize that, once they’re gone, no-one will want to carry the burden of hatred and inhumanity that they bear. They’re realizing that their bitter oppression has all been in vain, and that soon, gay people will be able to live their lives in the sunlight of reason and compassion. They hate that. They desperately need a group of people they can feel superior to, so they don’t have to face the reality of their monstrosity. They’re puffing themselves up like frightened housecats, trying to make themselves seem threatening, even relevant.

Their day is done. As they fade into senescence, their ideas, their positions will seem more and more absurd and cruel, their attitudes towards gay people will seem more quaint and archaic and embarrassing than threatening. Their children, having heard both sides of the story, will choose to treat their fellow men with compassion and justice. And another great darkness will fade from the face of the earth.

This is a difficult time, certainly; the fight is won, but the enemy won’t give up. They can’t give up; it would mean admitting that they were wrong, which would mean facing up to the consequences of their actions, which are pretty damned abhorrent. So we have to keep on fighting, with the truth as the only weapon we have, or need. It’s going to take a while longer, and there are going to be more casualties. More dead kids. But there’s hope. There’s a light on the horizon.

We need to save as many as we possibly can, while the fight is going on. The monsters are preying on children, and children are hard to protect, especially from twisted, stunted parents. But this thread, these ideas we’ve discussed here, they could help. All of us could help, and make sure that there are as few kids lost as possible, while we fight to make sure that, a few years from now, this kind of fight will never be needed again.

[leander]

Anything we can possibly do – TO FIGHT IGNORANCE – is worth the struggle, the hardships, the loss of life. If there is a hope for the future of all people, it is in the true belief of love thy neighbor.

We can only hope…

[Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas]

*Originally posted by andygirl *
**This evening I am raising a toast to my friend Daryl, who came out of the closet to his parents last week. They are fundamentalists. They did not take it well.

He killed himself last night.

I hope they’re happy. They went from telling him that they no longer had a son to no longer having a son.

I’m so upset right now I can hardly stand it. Another day, another statisitic. **

Cite? Perhaps you can dig up a newspaper article. I mistrust statistics in this thread, as you may have noticed.

UnuMondo

[Siege]

You’re joking, right? Andygirl is mourning the death of a friend and you want the obituary notice. I’ve given you statistics from the American Association of Pediatrics, yet you mistrust them. What more do you want? What is it with the level of callousness around this place recently?

CJ

[moi]

I normally avoid just posting hugs and happy thoughts to a thread for fear of hijacking, but after what Uno just posted, the need was too strong.

{{{{Andygirl}}}}

I am deeply sympathetic to the pain you’re going through right now.

[matt_mcl]

What more do you want? What is it with the level of callousness around this place recently?

Well, it’s just faggots and dykes, you see. It’s not like we matter.

If you prick us, I guess we don’t bleed.

[MsRobyn]

I’ve been reading this thread since it was started.

First off, I’d like to express my condolences to andygirl. I can’t imagine any parent deliberately turning their back on their child to the point where the child feels it necessary to end his own life. No, wait. I can imagine it, and it saddens me to no end.

That said, I do have a child of my own, and I’ve thought about the possibility that he might be gay. And, in all honesty, it would not matter to me if he were. He’d still be the same child I knew and loved. He’d still have the same qualities he had before he came out. The only thing coming out changes is that I’d know he’s gay.

I want what every parent wants for their child. I want him to be happy. If that means entering a relationship with another man, then that’s what it means. I don’t think that a rule book should dictate what is best for me and for my family, and I feel bad for people who let a rule book do their thinking for them.

Robin

[andygirl]

*Originally posted by UnuMondo *
**Cite? Perhaps you can dig up a newspaper article. I mistrust statistics in this thread, as you may have noticed.

UnuMondo **

I’m appalled.

He committed suicide last week. And you know what? I can post obituary after obituary, but not a damn one of them is probably going to mention that he committed suicide in the first place- I’ve seen too many “died suddenly at homes” to count in papers at this point- let alone the circumstances surrounding it, which his parents are probably a little less than pleased about. Ang guess who writes the obituary, anyway?

And forgive me, but I’m not entirely thrilled to be accused of either making up his death, which I did not, or taking advantage of the timely death of another Dartmouth student to make a point in a GD thread.

If you are so desparate for a cite that will most likely not mention some of the things you seem to be after, I’ll find a damn obituary. Because, oh, wouldn’t want to be without a cite in times like these.

[Homebrew]

*Originally posted by andygirl *
I’ve seen too many “died suddenly at homes” to count in papers at this point-

My experience working in newspapers tells me that “died in his home” is the typical obit lingo for suicide, particularly for anyone young and/or not fighting a terminal illness. That’s how I found out about one of the guys I knew in high school while I was interning at the local paper.

[iampunha]

*Originally posted by UnuMondo *
Cite? Perhaps you can dig up a newspaper article. I mistrust statistics in this thread, as you may have noticed.

UnuMondo

Oh, how glorious. andygirl posts about the suicide of a friend of hers and you want a cite.

Tell me, now. My paternal grandfather was a pedophile who died of cancer in the mid 90s. Since he didn’t kill himself, I’ll bet I can find an obit that will mention how he died. However, it probably won’t say a word about all the awful things he did. Would you like one, or do you trust my word?

Good grief. It’s not like she posted that she had the secret to cold fusion and we all just had to trust her on it.

What is it with the frigidity of some people around here? This is the first time I have EVER, in ANY thread on this board, seen a request for A CITE ON SOMEONE’S DEATH like this. The only thing that even technically compares is when poohpah died and people wanted to know how. None of us doubted or ask for proof when Scotticher posted about it. Know why, UnoMondo?

BECAUSE PEOPLE DON’T FUCKING LIE ABOUT DEATH!

I guess we’ll have to add one more to the list of people who have, among other things, no decency.

[JerseyDiamond]

*Originally posted by UnuMondo *
**Cite? Perhaps you can dig up a newspaper article. I mistrust statistics in this thread, as you may have noticed.

UnuMondo **

Wasn’t there an inncident where someone faked a death (or something like that) to get sympathy, on this board?

I think that would be good enough reason to question the validity of something.

One way or another, it doesn’t effect UnuMondo if someone she/he doesn’t know takes their life, but I can’t imagine why asking for a cite would be upsetting?
I understand that the obituary may not even be out yet, but what’s all the hostility for? After all, if a person is able to post about it, a cite shouldn’t be a big deal.

The only reason I post this is because you act like UnuMondo is some kind of monster for not believing everything she/he hears.

It really sucks on both the families part and the person who committed suicide. There was definetely a better way to deal with things. It’s to bad the family wasn’t stronger.