Oh, and I’d also like to point out that any position that’s advocating the suppression of knowledge is advocating ignorance, by definition.
I couldn’t figure out what you wrote and what someone else wrote, or who the someone else was. You didn’t provide any source, I have no idea if that was a small part of an entire book, or (as seems more likely) most if not all of a shorter article, and you did a pretty bad job of even differentiating between your words and the words of whoever it was. So I deleted the entire post.
Please review our FAQ on copyright issues.
Okay, so now that we’ve spent a while dealing with the hysterical ‘They’re talking about fisting! Talking about fisting!’ crowd, I suggest we move this discussion on to more productive territory. Such as, how do we help these kids? What’s the best approach to take to gay youth, to make sure they know the information that’s necessary to their survival?
I’m personally, as you can tell, in favor of modifying the current lack of reference to homosexuality in school curriculum to reflect the presence and contributions of homosexuals throughout history. I’d also like to see more referrals available to gay kids, to community and youth organizations that cater to the GLBT community. Gay-positive information has been so notably absent from any schools in this country that I believe that the educational system has a lot to make up for.
Do you think that this is a reasonable approach to the dissemination of this information, or do you believe there’s a better way to go about it? And, once we’ve determined how best to get this information out, how do we go about starting the process?
Holy crap!! They didn’t have any of that when I was a Scout!
::: bemoans the fact that his youth predated the sexual revolution 
::::
I really like this idea. When I was in high school, we’d often get to hear the intimate details of the lives of famous artists, writers, and political leaders – so long as they were heterosexual. Famous homosexuals seemed to have no personal lives at all. Textbooks were written along the same lines. It wouldn’t take much to modify that approach, to make things fair.
It might also be useful to include something in sex ed classes. I had sex ed four years in a row with nary a mention of homosexuality.
Well, at least it scared you into not getting a girl pregnant!! 
:smack:
I’m another who believes that just being honest and matter-of-fact would go a long way. I didn’t know until college that Walt Whitman was gay.
My bad, I did read that. I’m sorry that I’m trying to do some productive work as well as participate in this forum.
As for sex education, I would have them learn about reproduction and the responsibilities that reproducing entail. Things that involve values are the territory for families to decide, not public institutions.
And while participation may have been voluntary, you cannot deny that steps were taken to prevent the parents who were interested from learning what was being taught.
which was exactly my point, thank you.
fine, but don’t bother to repeat the google search that i spelled out for you, that lists about 100 references to this conferences including the transcripts that were included on that tape. I know nothing about that site. However from what I have seen from most leftists is that it doesnt really matter what facts and evidence are presented if they conflict with their preconceived notions.
If “sex education” were simply about reproduction, it could be an elective taught by extension to young adults interested in how they can become parents. It’s how to deal intelligently with the bodily drives that kids are becoming aware that they have, and which produce pleasure and can be used to cause serious emotional harm to others and can result in disease and/or unwanted pregnancy if not properly dealt with.
And the fact that some substantial percentage of the kids taking it are feeling desires related to persons of their own sex (see the GQ thread for discussion on what that “substantial percentage” actually is) means that dealing with such desires needs to be addressed, and not exclusively on “it’s wrong; don’t do it.” That works on three-year-olds (and not always then!), not adolescents.
In addition to which, and I take it as a personal affront that the thread keeps getting hijacked from the topic, it is a crying shame that the kids who do feel such desires are ostracized and made to feel themselves as being abominable for having them, by peer pressure and by the attitude of much of the public. That, along with the apparent cowardice of many gay men and women in not helping gay teens deal with those problems out of fear of being considered pedophiles for doing so, was the point matt_mcl was making. If “Each man’s death diminishes me…” as John Donne said, then you and I and every reader of this thread have been diminished by an estimated three gay teens who suicided during the time this thread has been on the board. You think maybe they could use some help and consolation, rather than killing themselves?
Except that we don’t have any independent verification of this. So, no, I can neither deny nor can I confirm that “steps were taken to prevent the parents who were interested from learning what was being taught.”
If all 100 of your Google hits refer back to the same source, then they are not 100 sources.
I used the terms “GSLEN” and “Tufts” and I can find nothing to support your contention that the conference dealt with “fisting” or any other sexual activity.
I understand what you are saying and in pricincipal I would agree with you. However what concerns me is further intrusion of the government into the family. I fear the cure may be far worse for society as a whole than the disease that affects a smaller population. Children grow up with issues over many things besides being gay, though I admit for many they are issues that could create the biggest negative reaction.
I have known many people who have had children that from an early age it was obvious that their orientation was different than the “norm”, for lack of a better word. I haven’t known any who hated the child, though some hoped that they could shape their orientation as they grew up in the hopes that they could somehow grow up hetero. If you grew up in a household where you weren’t loved for being gay, I am truly sorry. I also know guys whose fathers practically disowned them because they weren’t athletic or girls whose mothers were ashamed of them because they weren’t pretty. That is sad, but it is not the role of the government to be the perfect parent to it’s citizens. While it sounds like a good idea, the problem is that it opens the doors to oppression, which is what I fear.
Tex, you’re attempting to put gay people in the position of defending the teaching of fisting in high schools. But… and listen closely… that’s not what’s being discussed.
You read the page from the National Association of School Psychologists which I actually do support. Care to address some of the approaches that it advocates?
My position is that schools are not a means of social indoctrination. While many of the goals stated are admirable ones, I am skeptical when any group from any point of view advocates themselves as the arbiter of what is the correct information to be conveyed.
It concerns me that they mention staff that may “knowingly or unknowingly discriminate”. My paranoid side reads that as “if you don’t advocate what we advocate, you are wrong” It means that the weapon of discrimination is available to be used whenever their objectives cannot be obtained through other means.
I object to further classroom time being devoted to studying the gay rights movement, or other trivial (relatively) subjects when kids can’t even find their home state on a map, and don’t learn about the Constitution or any number of other subjects. I could go on, but that is enough for now with the exception that I do not believe that any one group should have special educational attention for things such as substance abuse.
I have to give this one to you. The stances you have taken make it very clear that the bolded phrase is quite accurate.
Just where in the Constitution does it give all minority groups the right to advocate their position in government schools?
The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees to all Americans, minority or not, the right to equal protection of the laws and the right to life, liberty, and property unless removed by due process of law, and forbids states to violate those rights.
Public schools are run by various entities from state to state, but those entities are creatures of the states, deriving any powers they have from those of the state.
I am very much disturbed about your attempting to turn this discussion into a question of whether some group at one time or another advocated fisting at the university level. I am formally requesting you (and those responding to you) to drop that question completely in this thread. Certainly you as a poster are entitled to express your opinions as you see fit within the guidelines of the board. And I as a poster and the OP of this thread am entitled to ask that it stay on topic, or at least not far off topic or for long. If you actually see the Tufts incident as a serious and widespread problem, may I urge you to open a new thread to discuss it?
so just exactly, specifically what is it that is proposed we teach children about homosexuality in the seventh grade? I’m not asking for links or generalities, but exact details.
**
When I took sex education it didn’t have anything to do with how to deal intelligently with sexual desires. It had nothing to do with what caused serious harm to others or what brought about pleasure. All we learned were the biological functions of the male and female reproductive organs and how they interacted with one another. Of course this was when I was in 5th grade back in '86 or so.
Marc