Gays = 80% of serious STDs?

Factual Questions
41

Sure - in 1984. Fine me a recent cite that accurately reflects the majority of gay health advocacy groups and perhaps your rebuttal would hold a little more weight.

Does anyone remember the beginning of this epidemic? Contrary messages, rampant ignorance over modes of transmission, blatant homophobia… the list goes on. The gay community, particularly in the Mecca that is San Francisco, saw this as an attack on what little slice of heaven they’d managed to carve for themselves, i.e., the “safe space” of the Castro, where they were actually secure enough to establish a community and be themselves without fear of retribution (strength in numbers and all that - not that SF didn’t have its problems). So of course they felt threatened, and as the bathhouses were seen as a self-expression of “not buying into the heterosexual dogma,” and not knowing any better about the disease itself, it was viewed as a direct assault against that self-expression the gay community there had worked so hard to establish.

Oh, that’s charming. Adds much credence to your argument. :rolleyes:

Esprix

42

And, as I was pointing out, Hastur has apparently learned nothing from the experience of the past 17 years. I was rebutting his assertion on an individual level, but if you assume that my rebuttal also addresses the view of some larger gay community, than hey, out of your own mouth, buddy.

Apparently some of them understood how the disease was transmitted even in the early 80s; according to And the Band Played On: “Long after his diagnosis, [Gaetan ]Dugas [“Patient Zero”] would sodomize willing partners in dimly lit cubicles, then turn up the lights and point to the purplish Kaposi’s sarcoma lesions on his skin. ‘I’ve got gay cancer,’ he would say. ‘I’m going to die, and so are you.’”

Tell me you have something against licking Grandpa’s anus. But of course, my point was, that if you knew that eating Grandpa’s brain might give you a variant of mad cow disease, well then by golly, you’d think twice about doing it.

43

And apparently you missed Hastur’s point entirely. If you’d actually read the article he linked to you’d have read these remarks:

Unfortunately, Hastur neglected to put the following in quotes, so it was not his statement at all but rather a quote from the link:

With all due respect to Mr. Shilts, there is a fair amount of debate over the veracity of his facts and the amount of artistic license he took with his book. Nevertheless, you’re still only talking about one person - the vast majority of people (i.e., the heterosexual population in general, as it was still a “gay disease” in the mid-80’s, and the vast majority of homosexual men living outside of the hardest hit areas like San Francisco and, later, New York City) were amazingly ignorant about AIDS and HIV. Hell, even the CDC was giving out contradictory information year after year until a reasonable length of time passed before they could make some sound epidemiological observances. It wasn’t until I came out around 1997 that people actually knew what “safer sex” really meant (and it still took a few years after that before they cleared up some gray areas, such as transmission via oral sex).

Let me know when you become amusing, because I seem to be missing it.

And of course, my point is, that the majority of people who were at highest risk to this disease in the early years of the epidemic did not know.

Esprix

44

Regarding demands for me to disprove what was not originally proven to begin with about promiscuity:

From: http://php.iupui.edu/~jtownsle/gay/gayhealth.html

**
In a study of sexual behavior in homosexuals and heterosexuals, the researchers found that of gay men, 35.9% had one male partner in their lifetime, 45.8% had 2-4 male partners, 7.9% had 5-9 male partners, and 10.3% had 10 or more sexual partners. The mean of this is 4.2 partners. (The statistics I did by myself using the data presented, which is presented as a percentage of total males interviewed, both gay and straight (p. 345)–they can be verified yourself by looking at the numbers given in the paper)(Fay; n=77 gay males of 1450 males total). In a parallel study, a random sample of primarily straight men (n=3111 males who had had vaginal intercourse; of the total sample of n=3224 males, only 2.3% had indicated having had sex with both men and women), the mean number of sexual partners was 7.3, with 28.2% having 1-3 partners, and 23.3% having greater than 19 partners (Billy). This data indicates that gay men have had a significantly lower number of sexual partners than heterosexuals.**

Furthermore:

In another set of studies, the first (n=2664) showed that gay men had an average of 6.5 sexual partners in the past 5 years. In fact, the authors of this
paper report that “homosexual and bisexual men are much more likely than heterosexual men to be celibate” given the data in the table below, which
compares their data to a second, parallel study of only heterosexual men (n=1235, age=18-49 yrs). The table indicates the percentage of men having the given
number of sexual partners in the previous year [top row: Binson; bottom row: Dolcini]:

You can go to the link to see the chart which has the information the top paragraph is citing.

Regarding infection rates and transmission of HIV:

**Distribution of Exposure Categories Among Positive HIV Tests Reported in 1998 for Individuals Ages 10 to 29 Years in Canada:

http://www.times10.org/robert_feb_2000.htm

Ages 10-19:

40% MSM
60% Heterosexual Contact

Ages 20-29:

32% MSM
33% Heterosexual Contact
30% IDU
2% Blood & Blood Products
3% MSM/IDU

Source:HIV and AIDS in Canada: Surveillance Report to December 31, 1998. Division of HIV/AIDS Surveillance, Bureau of HIV/AIDS, STD and TB, LCDC,
Health Canada, April 1999.

IDU = Intravenous Drug Use

MSM = Men who have sex with men**

Interesting how that shoots holes in the concept that gay men are the highest infection rate, isn’t it?

Where promiscuity is concerned, studies have found that it can lead to species strength, as in this study http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2000/38/study.html which found that it increased immune functioning.

So, I am again wondering both why some heterosexuals on this board continue to start these threads about homosexuality.

While some of them ask honest questions without judging or defaming gay people at large, many of them do. Many of them attract and are populated with people who don’t want to learn the facts, but instead disseminate ad hominem beliefs and try to pass them off as truth.

Thus no cite is sufficient, as they want to live in fallacious beliefs and become hostile when challenged, resorting to name calling or more subtle attacks, calling gay people at large either ‘diseased’ or ‘mentally ill.’

What is to be gained by this behavior on a board dedicated to the eradicating of ignorance?

45

Good Lord, I think this thread, and that post, will be one I quote often. Thanks, Hastur.

Esprix

46

I’m going to try this again.

Those who want to argue about who asked whom what first, or who ought to provide a cite, are instructed – not requested, but instructed, to take it to another forum.

Those who want to argue the pros and cons of promoting abstinence vs. safe sex are instructed – not requested, but instructed, to take it to another forum.

As I see it, there are two legitimate General Questions on the table here. First, “Do gay men get 80% of serious STD’s?” The answer here so far seems to be “no,” but exact figures, including a definition of “serious,” seem to be lacking.

Second, “Are gay men more or less promiscuous, on average, than straight men?” The answer on the table seems to be “less” (and I’ve got some serious catching up to do!).

47

“Promiscuous” seems to imply some sort of moral judgement.

“Number of sexual partners” might sound more scientific. But then: 1. People lie about their sexuality 2. There isn’t any clear definition of ‘sex’.

Every scientific study I have seen shows that gay men have the most sexual partners while gay women the least. Therefore, it would be logical to conclude that STD’s would also be most common in gay males & least common in lesbians, right?

48

So cite a damn study! Sheesh!

49

And these are the problems with generalities.

OK, let’s say for the sake of argument (and I’d love to see those studies, handy) that gay men do have more sexual partners than straight men, and lesbians have the least. That may mean that gay men are more likely to have had/have an STD, but it does not say that they actually do. But, again, for the sake of argument, let’s say they do. How many more? Twice? Thrice? Ten times? That’s one gray area. And then, of course, there’s the larger question - how much of the population is actually comprised of gay men? At most, it’s 10%.

So, let’s say out of 100 people:

  • 5 are gay men
  • 5 are lesbians
  • 45 are heterosexual men
  • 45 are heterosexual women

And let’s say that each heterosexual person, male or female, has had, on average, one STD. Let us further say that each gay man has had, on average, oh, three STD’s. And let’s say that the lesbians, on average, have had none. So that means:

  • 5 men have had a total of 15 STD’s between them
  • 5 women have had a total of 0 STD’s between them
  • 90 heterosexuals (men and women) have had 90 STD’s between them.

Guess what? Because the larger number are heterosexuals, they still make up the largest number (and, in this example, the largest percentage as well) of cases.

So, yes, factually, you can say, “On average, gay men have more STD’s than straight men,” but the fact of the matter is, heterosexuals still have more than all gay men put together.

This is called “spinning the numbers.”

Esprix

50

I’m chipping in with these comments a little late here, but it’s relevant to the thread anyway, so here goes.

Count me in as another gay man who has never had an STD. The last thing I want to do is catch one, and I’m going to make pretty damn sure I don’t. I’ve only ever slept with one guy - we both got tested for EVERYTHING first, and neither of us sleeps with anyone else. If, in the future, we do have different sexual partners, it won’t be until we’ve been tested again. Having a test provides additional reassurance, and more importantly, it’s a sign of respect to the other guy - and yourself.

I know two heterosexual men who have had STDs. Both thought it would be OK to dispense with the condoms, and ended up regretting it. One picked up chlamidya, the other syphillis. I don’t know any gay men who don’t use condoms (yes, we do talk about these things), unless they are in a monogamous relationship and have been tested first. Simply because they’re not stupid, and know about the risks. As for HIV, I don’t know anyone, gay or straight, who has contracted it.

On the subject of promiscuity, I know dozens of gay men of all types, backgrounds and ages, and none of them sleep around. I do, however, have some heterosexual friends and colleagues who pick up someone different every weekend. Although that’s not to say the majority are like this - merely the few. So, generalize if you want to, but it doesn’t mean to say those assumptions will be accurate.

Finally, when it comes to taking risks, it doesn’t matter whether you’re gay or straight. It all boils down to whether or not you’re stupid enough to put yourself in that situation, regardless of your sexuality. In other words, gay or straight, you can either be stupid enough to have unprotected sex with multiple partners, or smart enough to play it safe instead. It’s not about sexuality, it’s about whether or not you have any sense.

51

OK. In the link provided by Hastur, the author quotes a study that shows a much larger percentage of celibate homosexuals to heterosexuals (24% to 8%) over a five year period. He also shows, but does not stress, a much higher ratio of homosexuals with more than 1 sex partner (35% to 12%).

It is possible that, due to cultural and religious attitudes about homosexuality, there is a relatively higher percentage of homosexuals who do not lead an active homosexual lifestyle than there are heterosexuals who do not lead an active heterosexual one. This would account for a higher percentage of celibate homosexuals, and a higher percentage of promiscuous ones, as that study seems to indicate.

Hastur, could you describe who exactly is the author of the linked article? It is extremely poorly written, and appears to be the work of a college kid or such.

52

Hastur, we found the same data, but on different websites! I’m suspicious of the Billy study because of its age (early 90s). I suspect that’s an especially unreliable timeframe because quite a number of gay men went into a sort of panic and simply stopped having sex (I’m afraid I don’t have data on this - I’m just reporting what I’ve heard from quite a number of people, in both NY and SF, who survived the black years).

It’d be interesting to see the result now. I’d bet dollars-to-donuts (a much easier bet now that a donut costs almost a dollar) that on average you’d find gay men having more partners than straight men, but not by that much. The standard deviation (chuckle) would be enormous - but I think the urban gay sluts like yours truly would now outbalance the celibate (or nearly celibate).

Now, about that second study you cite, regarding HIV transmission in Canada. I’m even more leery of drawing any conclusion about promiscuity from data on HIV transmission, because fundamentally you’re talking about two variables that are imperfectly dependent, and only in one direction: people who seroconvert are more likely to have been promiscuous, but lots of promiscuous people don’t seroconvert.

Furthermore, the article you linked and cited implies, but fails explicitly to state, that the data for “heterosexual contact” cover both men and women. I’d be very surprised if the female-to-male transmission rate is anywhere near the male-to-female rate. Given that the saturation level for heterosexuals in general is low, and that the f-m transmissibility of clade B appears to be low, I don’t think there’s much of anything to be concluded about heterosexual male promiscuity from HIV transmission data.

53

Also, I’m in agreement with Izzy - although in the end the data cited may be unimpeachable, the HIV transmission article is horrendous, badly written by someone with a clear axe to grind. I’m treating it (to borrow a phrase from the law) “in a light most favorable to the proponent,” but it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.

54

Statistics? Alrightie… Here are some for Aids:
(http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/cgi-msql/cdc97_db3.pl)

Here you can see that about 72% of the HIV cases in California are men having sex with men.

Also (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.50904):

  1. In the United States, an estimated 15.3 million new cases of
    sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) occur each year, at least
    one-quarter of them among teenagers.

  2. Approximately two-thirds of people who acquire STDs in the
    United States are younger than 25.

  3. An estimated 20 million people in the United states are infected
    with HPV, and as many as 5.5 million new infections occur each
    year.1

4.Cervical infection with oncogenic types of HPV is associated with
more than 80 percent of cases of invasive cervical cancer.

From: (Note: MSM= men who have sex with men) http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4835a1.htm

Syphilis cases increased steadily from late 1997 to mid-1998, appeared to stabilize in the second half of 1998, then increased
during January-June 1999 (Figure 1). The proportion of cases in MSM increased from 21% (four of 19) in 1997 to 85% (75
of 88) in 1998 and 1999 (pless than 0.01)

In addition, cases of rectal gonococcal infection in
males reported by providers outside the STD clinic increased from six cases in 1997 to 25 cases in 1998 and 13 cases during
January-June 1999. The median age of the 427 MSM who received a diagnosis of gonorrhea or chlamydial infection in the
STD clinic from 1997 through June 1999 was 32 years (range: 20-53 years), and 17% with chlamydial infection and 19% with
gonorrhea were known to be infected with HIV

Data on sex partners were provided by 63 (80%) of the 79 MSM with infectious syphilis from 1997 through June 1999.
During the interval when syphilis was likely to have been acquired or transmitted (mean: 6 months), these men reported 740 sex
partners, of whom 653 (88%) were met at anonymous venues such as bath houses, bars, or clubs; 50 (79%) of 63 men had
had at least one anonymous partner (median: three partners; range: one to 100)

References:
1.CDC. Gonorrhea among men who have sex with men–selected sexually transmitted diseases clinics, 1993-1996.
MMWR 1997;46:889-92.
2.CDC. Increases in unsafe sex and rectal gonorrhea among men who have sex with men–San Francisco, 1994-1997.
MMWR 1999;48:45-8.

55

Inflammatory obnoxious question designed to piss people off + low post count = Not shocking at all.

Dude- Go into the big blue room and don’t stare at the big light.

56

This is all well and good, but none of it directly refutes the original statement, that:

A. Homosexuals have 80% of all serious STDs in the country [Though the issue of HIV infection rates has pretty much been beaten into the ground]

and

B. Homosexuals constitute 2% of the American population.
[Again, i realize that hard numbers for a typically self-reported and stigmatized lifestyle may be hard to come by, but there must be some published somewhere…I know that the local BGLT advocacy group claims that the actual percentage is between 5 and 10%.]

Thanks…
flawdlogic.

57

I also am sticking to my previous statement.

58

I am not gay and been called a Redneck, but that 2% of the population seems way to low to me, 10% even seems low.

I have little doubt in my closed little mind that HIV is more spread in the homosexual community than the “straight” community per capita, but I suggest you find some serious facts before you post here, or you will get shot down damn fast.

59

This is preposterous from a mathematical/statistical point of view. Even if we assume the higher end of the spectrum, that 10% of the population is gay, using my example of 100 people (and assuming my math is correct), this would mean that every single gay man would have to have eight different STDs and only two out of every five straight men would have one.

So unless you know an average gay guy who’s got HIV, gonorrhea, chlamydia, hepatitis A, B and C, genital warts, and herpes, then I think the numbers may be, shall we say, a wee bit off.

Esprix

60

The original poster is only posting this crap because he likes the attention. Let’s let this topic sink and die.