No, MrVisible, it is not a good reason to keep gay people out of the military.
It’s a good reason to let gay people in the military and eliminate one of the objections people have by eliminating communal showers.
Dismissing seven people with valuable skills is VITAL to our national security. Morale in the military is essential for recruiting and retention. Homosexuals are the minority group here, and if the morale of the majority is dramatically affected by homosexuality then they have to go. Clearly this has proven to be the case in the past. It’s that simple. It’s a case of the few having to pay the price for the many.
I’m sorry that those people had to go. I’d still do anything for them, being that they were fellow Airmen. But it is the determination of the military leaders that homosexuality is unacceptable, and it has the tacit approval, if not outright support, of the elected officials (you know, the ones YOU voted for).
That’s my last word on the subject. I think their dismissals were wrong, personally, but that’s the way it has to be. If you are either unable or unwilling to understand what I’m saying, shame on you.
How about this… you’re looked at every day, by women, by men, whatever. If being naked in front of other people (regardless of gender, since you don’t want to make the distinction) makes you uncomfortable, then as has already been said, that is your problem, not the other person’s.
What exactly are you worried about? Someone looking at you? Someone thinking about you? Does it really matter if you’re clothed or unclothed? Do you have a rational argument to make here, because I’ve yet to hear one from you. So far, you’ve talked about quite irrational fears.
Wrong. Read the other posts here… they can do far better, and should do so. It is the military leadership’s lack of “enlightenment” that is hampering.
I did not intend to imply that the the U.S. wouldn’t be justified in fighting Iraq. That’s another GD entirely. What I was trying to say was that the individual soldier does not get to make that choice. It doesn’t matter whether or not he believes that war with Iraq is justified. If he is ordered to kill Iraqi soldiers, he must do so or face disciplinary action. And if tomorrow the U.S. government decides, for whatever reason, that the Japanese, or the French, or the Canadians are our enemies, then the soldier must do his best to fight them. He doesn’t get to say, “But my best friend is French, and I really don’t feel comfortable killing French people.”
Yet if that same soldier is ordered not to kill, but merely to share living quarters and a working relationship with someone who happens to have a same-sex orientation, he will be unable to carry out that order.
“Crawl under that barbed wire, under threat of enemy fire.”
“Yes, Sir!”
“Wade through that swamp in the middle of the night.”
“Yes, Sir!”
“Drive down that potentially mined road.”
“Yes, Sir!”
“Face ‘shrapnel, poisonous gas, gaping wounds, dead buddies, and body bags.’”
Yes, Sir!"
“Work with that gay guy.”
“Sorry, nope, can’t do it, no way, it would upset me.”
It’s not that I don’t understand that having to shower with a potentially gay guy might make you uncomfortable. It’s that I thought being a soldier meant that you had to do many, many, uncomfortable, unpleasant, potentially life-threatening things, under orders, without complaining. I just don’t get how people who willingly obey orders that could get them killed won’t obey orders that have a very small potential to get them ogled.
**LaurAnge wrote:
No, in your body-image. It has nothing to do with my sexuality that I feel uncomfortable being sized up by people.**
Ah, I see. So, when any gay man looks at another man, he’s automatically sizing him up in some sexual way?
Tell me, when did you get this talent for reading minds and knowing other people’s thoughts?
If we were in more peaceful times, would you support forced integration of gays into the military? Or is it something that you feel can never happen, ever?
Boy, is that a good point. Why is it that these guys can be tough enough to volunteer for war, the worst hell humanity has to offer, but they can’t handle working next to a gay guy? I guess prejudice and bigotry is actually stronger than fear of death.
You know, a good seven-eighths of the guys I’ve ever heard express fright that a gay guy could ever possibly be interested in them were REALLY not cute.
I am getting the impression that a lot of people are freaked out because some possibly gay person might fucking look at them in the shower and have “evil” thoughts.
Get a fucking grip, you repressed fucks. Who fucking cares?
If you are that fucked up about people looking at your shit, you shouldn’t join the military anyway. (And yes, I have been in the military.
I am a het man, and no doubt during my service I showered with gay dudes. So fucking what?
No, they don’t go up and grab your dick.
I would rather serve with a unit of flaming queens than with some of you homophobia couched in “common sense, and it’s just the way it is” assholes.
You know, matt, I’ve noticed the exact same thing. The ones who scream loudest about some guy maybe looking at their butt, have obviously never backed up to a mirror. Don’t worry, though, I go out of my way to reassure them they’re in the clear on that issue.
Please, tell me where I said that, I’d love to know.
I said that I look at people who I might be sexually attracted to in a different way, and I’m fairly certain that well, I can guarantee it’s true.
And, let me tell you truly, this has nothing to do with homophobia. It has to do with not everyone feeling comfortable around other people naked.
A few thoughts.
A) The rules are the rules until changed. It would be far worse a precident I think to not dismiss the seven men, even though we might be facing the war. Ignoring the code of conduct leads to very lax troops, sorry. I would like the rules to be changed, save for one issue that I am concerned with, as stated below.
B) Fraternization between troops. The best arguement I have heard against open gays in the military is the can of worms caused by relationships that might exist between members in the line of command. It is already a problem w/regards to women in the millitary, and such relationships are pure poison to a unit. I know a lot of gays can be professional, and keep away from such affairs (No pun intended), but the few who can’t will cause a lot of damage.
In the end, I say it still comes down to a political situation. If the sufficient support for ending the ban could be found in the Congress, Executive Branch and Public, the law could be passed, and the military would adapt. Sure, you would have some resignations like during desegration (though I think fewer.) But IMHO, anyone who chooses to abandon the service of their country over this issue is not someone I want to serve with anyway.
Although it hasn’t worked as intended, the “don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t pursue” rule wasn’t a completely stupid idea. It might have made for a good transition. But it’s vague, and can be bent and broken without much enforcement. Those cases in which it is have been well publicized. And in most of them, a failure in leadership by the officers and NCOs involved has been the biggest problem. Until a soldier directly contravenes the regulation and forces action, the leadership should not only ignore any suspicions they might have about the soldier’s sexuality, they should also crack down hard on any harassment in the ranks, which happens to be very detrimental to good order and discipline.
In my opinion, it’s a matter of time. The cross-section of military personnel I’ve discussed this with may be limited, but I definitely think the upcoming generations of leaders are more of the opinion that if you do your job well and follow the regs, what you do in the bedroom really isn’t important. How widespread that view is, I don’t know. But I’d say it’s a sizeable minority at least. The US military is a fair cross-section of American society. As the American public changes it’s views, you’ll see the same changes in the military.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you meant the general “you” here, because if not then you might want to reconsider this notion that every person on this board voted for the officials we have in office.
How wonderfully full of bullshit! Congratulations to you on your ability to say that without projectile-vomiting. Of course this is not the way it has to be. The military does not have to be this way. But I guess if you say that to yourself enough times, it has to gain some amount of “truth”, right?
How about if we’re unwilling to accept that this current situation is how it has to be?
I’m always amazed at how far homophobes will go to keep from admitting their homophobia.
If you’re afraid that a gay guy might be checking you out in the shower, hey, guess what? That’s pretty much the definintion right there.
And if you think that the presence of gay men will somehow undermine the stability of the world’s strongest military force… well, yeah, you guessed it.
Homophobia. It’s not limited to the Fred Phelps of the world. Here’s a hint; if you hear yourself saying anything that starts something like “I’m not a homophobe. Heck, I’ve known lots of gay people. But…” stop right there and take a good look at yourself. You’re probably about to utter a statement that has absolutely no basis in rational fact, cannot be supported by any statistics, and when boiled down, comes from a deep-seated feeling of “Ew, it’s icky.” That, my friends, is homophobia. The most pervasive, and thus, the most destructive kind.
So feeling oogy about gay couple kissing is homophobia? I know a gay guy who thinks the same with straight people trying to play with each other’s tonsils does that make him a heterophobe? There is a big difference between something giving you that icky feeling and fearing or hating it.
Now somebody looking at another guy’s ass in the shower isn’t going to cause the US military to collapse, or the more likely event, the thought that somebody may be checking your ass out in the shower is not going to cause the US military to collapse, I’ll agree with you on that.
But finding the thought that another guy checking you out to be a bit oogy is homophobia? Seems to be stretching it as far as I’m concerned.
And yes, I’m aware there is a difference between fearing and feeling oogy, and I wouldn’t have even touched it except you brought up that you feel that thinking homosexuality is icky or at least some components to it is the same as fearing homosexuality or homosexuals or in another word homophobia.
Or am I staying up to late and I’ve just been whooshed by something subtle in your post that makes it that I don’t actually disagree with you.
You’ll note I never said that, or anything like it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, LaurAnge.
I think LaurAnge’s argument is based more on modesty than on fear.
I could be wrong, of course, but that’s the impression I’m getting.
**
Your fucking problem. In fact, you are the problem, in that situation. If you’re so goddamn fucking insecure that you’re willing to throw out people who are just as qualified to be in the military as you – because they give you the willies, in effect – then you’re the problem, and you’re the one who should be discharged. You and everyone still in the military who is like you.
Pathetic. People like you make me sick.
Kirk
And because you’re pathetically insecure, gays should be banned from the military. Jesus fucking Christ, are you so stupid as to fail to realize that if you’re standing next to a gay person, even in a shower, and you become uncomfortable because that person is gay THEN THE PROBLEM IS WITH YOU! If anyone should be thrown out, it is you, not the gay person.
Kirk