I have to say, I’m incredibly baffled.
It’s not a question of whether someone of the same sex is checking me out. It’s a question of whether someone is checking me out while I’m naked. Be they male, female whatever. Tell me, how does that make me a homophobe? I have to say, I think you’re really wrong and misinterpreting me egregiously.
You’re absolutely right, they aren’t necessarily. But there is the potential, same as if a man and a woman had to shower together.
Well, let’s see. You’re using your squeamishness about having someone check you out when you’re naked to rationalize the position that gay people showering with straight people will make the straight people uncomfortable, whether the gay people are actually checking them out or not. You’re implying that there’s somehow something inherently wrong about gay people showering with straight people, despite the fact that it happens all the time, with few if any undesirable consequences. And you’re here in this thread using your squeamishness to back up the idea that straight people who feel like you do have a point when they exclude gay people from the privilege of military service.
Yes, a point that can easily be solved by eliminating communal showers. I don’t see you desperately clamoring for men and women to take communal showers together. What’s the difference?
And how does this make me against homosexuality?
If communal showering were the only thing keeping gays out of the military, then you’d have the solution in a nutshell. A few million dollars worth of federal budget, and we’d have the showers segregated, and everybody would be happy.
But it’s not, and it’s ridiculous to think that it is. Your personal hangups about nudity aside, there’s a culture of discrimination against homosexuals in this country that’s not only reflected by, but upheld by, the military’s policy on gay people.
Do you really think that someone who gets outraged at the idea of a gay guy checking him out in the shower will, once the showers are separated, simply be okay with being around a gay person? Do you think that showers are the only areas where military men are in close contact with each other? It’s not the only issue, and as much as I wish your solution would work for this problem, it’s going to take more than that.
It will take an executive order to allow gay people to integrate into the military, and it’s going to take time to overcome the deepseated prejudice that allows people to dismiss vital officers because they’re ooged out by their sexual identities. It’s going to take a change in the mindset of the military, and one of the first things to fall is going to have to be the idea that having a gay person look at you is somehow inherently evil.
I don’t give a flying leap if showers are divided or not. It’s not the issue that’s being debated here. Now can you stop yammering about it?
No, I don’t think it’s the only reason gay people aren’t in the military. I think it’s one reason, one that is easily solved. As a matter of fact, it’s one of the only reasosn I consider valid, and I think that, as a result, they should fix it and let gay people in the military.
I didn’t bring this up, and I would have been happy to let it drop if I didn’t get all these false and hurtful allegations about me in response.
Valid? You think that it’s a valid reason not to let people in the military? The fact that someone might get freaked out about what he’s imagining someone else is thinking about him?
You’re probably not a homophobe. But you sure do have some issues with the nudity thing. I prescribe a summer at a nudist colony.
Meanwhile, think about this; some of the people you meet are imagining you naked. Whether they ever see you naked or not, they’re thinking about what you look like under your clothes. They’re probably thinking about more than that too; imagining what you taste like, how you’d sound, what you’d feel like in bed. Think about that the next time you’re in the supermarket, or at a movie. And then get over it; it’s part of human nature.
No, it’s a valid concern that I think would need to be addressed and can easily be solved.
And I’m so glad you’ve diagnosed all the problems in my life. Have you ever thought about going professional?
Whatever.
And why is it a valid concern? Personal modesty needs to be an issue for the military?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAH!
Um. You don’t really GET to be modest in such situations.
It is a hang-up, and a ludicrous one to boot.
Just because a man has a dick doesn’t mean I even care to look at it. I’ve seen dicks. Some are better than others. But when I am in the shower, I want to enjoy the hot water and get clean.
Another man’s belief that I may be checking his sad ass out is his issue, not the reality. And at least from the gay men I know, it’s true of them too for the most part.
LaurAnge, while I understand that you are uncomfortable with being “checked out” while undressed in a non-sexual situation like a locker room or communal shower, and while I also favor providing people with enough privacy that they need not find themselves in such situations, I think you should give a little more thought to the feelings of homosexuals. You have said several times that hardly anyone would favor having men and women shower together, as it would likely make all involve uncomfortable. You don’t favor sex-segregated but sexual orientation-integration shows for the same reasons. But you haven’t shown any concern for the delicate sensibilities of gay men and lesbians.
I’m sure you don’t think that all homosexuals are lust-crazed sex fiends, and must realize that some homosexuals possess feelings of modesty much like your own. If communal showers of some kind are simply unavoidable, who are homosexuals to shower with to avoid possible icky feelings?
And you could run through the four possibilities again with a lesbian as the subject. So, if it is for some reason impossible to just give everyone their own shower, what is to be done? Swallow your embarassment and just get used to showering with other people.
Perhaps Laurange people should declare their their orientation outright, so that lesbians can shower with hetero men and gay men can shower with heterowomen. That still leaves hermaphrodites , bisexuals, and the just confused, but as I understand it they are presently not excluded anyway.
I find the whole shower thing interesting. No military experience here, but my experience on high school football and basketball teams in the sixties involved a lot of horse play in the showers that involved a lot of intimate contact in a macho way. No concern whatsoever if someone was enjoying it too much.
But as a visiting team. we would be given the girl’s change room which in every case had individual showers. Showers seemed to go much quicker then.
I think most lesbians would be even more unhappy about having to shower with straight men than straight men would be about having to shower with gay men. You don’t need much exposure to popular pornography to have a pretty good idea about what straight men would be thinking about the lesbians in the shower with them…
“Now, are either of you homosexuals?”
“You mean like flaming? Or part-time?”
-Stripes
God, this hang up about showering near gay folks is so utterly stupid. I’d go as far as to call it perverse.
Lets see, in my life, between middle school wrestling, middle school swim team, Boy Scouts, high school swim team, summer camp, Boy Scout Camp, Winter Camp, and three years in my fraternity, I couldn’t begin to count the number of times I showered with other men in communal arrangements.
And gee, what do you know, I never tried to reach and touch someone. Was never even really attracted to anyone. Even the one guy in my frat I was all sorts of crazy about. Most males, in my experience, are much more attractive with their clothes on.
So any reason based upon “I don’t want a gay guy checking me out in the shower” is bullshit. Utter bullshit. Gay people aren’t so horned up and perverse that we can’t keep our hands off of you. Get it through your heads, straight people: Just because you’re male and I’m gay doesn’t mean that I have any interest in you whatsoever.
If you’re in a shower with a gay guy, and you get uncomfortable, and all squeemish, because his eyes might at some point be pointed in your direction, then the problem is YOU. And you’re the one who should be discharged, for seeking to place your pathetically insecure modesty above the interests of national security, not to mention the all-important cause of equality.
Kirk
Lamia and others, if private showers are not an option, then sure. Make everyone shower together. You’re all right, it’s not the biggest deal in the world. It is an issue of personal modesty, and if you all believe that the military doesn’t need ot be concerned with this, then I’m sure you’re right as I’m not even a citizen of the country we’re talking about.
I never believed that gay people would try something, as Kirkland seems to be suggesting.
And while I appreciate that some of you are arguing your points, I feel that the level of personal judgement has gotten a bit too high for me in this thread, and as a result I think Ill let it go now.
So, you actually had no point whatsoever?
Okay, good. I can accept that.
Good god. What I want to know is why–in a combat situation–our troops are apparently stripping for each other instead of worrying about the enemy? Do these people take hour-long showers twice a day?
Join the Army (Airforce, Navy, and Marines). See the world. Defend and assholish policy because it’s the rules. Shower a lot, and worry about heebie-jeebies. Where do I sign up? :rolleyes:
Perhaps the fairest and most economic solution is for both sexes and the differently orientated to shower together. After all, separate is not equal, and women deserve equality with hetero men as much as homo men deserve equality with hetero men. If anyone is squeamish with that arrangement than they shouldn’t be in the army. Another advantage is that recruitment might just take less effort as well.
Okay, everyone, shut up.
You might not like it if I play a Ginger of the North, but I have personal knowledge that LaurAnge is not, repeat not, a homophobe. So you can calm down and start giving her the same benefit of the doubt that I, for example, might hope to enjoy.
Some people are taking her point, which for pete’s sake was against the gay ban (“it may have to do with showers; solution = install barriers in the showers, don’t ban the gay people”), and twisting it to a ridiculous extent to say things she didn’t mean.
Frankly, I agree with her - I don’t personally like showering communally with anyone I didn’t invite there, gay or straight, male or female. It doesn’t have to do with attraction, but with modesty. I’ll do it, if necessary, but I won’t enjoy it, and I would think twice (even if I were somehow magically disposed to enter the military) before entering any organization that required me to do so.
Thank you, matt. It really means a lot to me.
I’m not a huge fan of nudity-with-lots-of-strangers. Really not. And the insecurities I have about my body (let alone the rest of me) are not dissimilar to Laurange’s. Which means … ::wait for it:: I can really see where she’s coming from. She’s not a phobe of anything except “people I don’t know/trust seeing me naked”, which last I checked wasn’t a box on the “Are You a Bigot?” questionnaire. It’s general personal insecurity.
And now for something completely different:
While I agree with Mr. Visible in the sense that it’s different for every person (regardless of sexuality), I think there are some basic things that can be said:
The trouble with answering the questions you outlined (albeit briefly) in your post, Polycarp, is that within the gay community there isn’t a single consensus on any answer. You’ll find some gay guys who will be absolute pricks and say “well, of course I want to lay anything and everything in sight … I’m gay, after all, and look suggestively at you”. Convincing homophobes that these guys are joking is less than easy. And some non-hets aren’t in favor of equal rights … some see their orientation as a choice made against the will of God, etc. The whole Conversion Therapy gang weigh in there with the people who believe whatever change in their life (or sexuality) is due to a miracle from God, thus emphasizing the idea that it’s a Bad Thing to be gay and a Good Thing to be in a “traditional” family. In a sense it’s like fighting against your own brother. And the fact that there isn’t a consensus opinion of course does little to help the on-lookers; (to an extent) skeptics and hompohobes; each of which group is looking for anything to help them in their quest to continue stomping down The Downtrodden Homosexual.