Which premise is that?
I hope you understand that I find it very hard not to interject my personal bias into this discussion. Not just bias because of me but bias because of my experience and because I’m an activist in the community, a lecturer on this subject, I’ve appeared in the mass media twice, and as of two weeks ago I was recognized officially as an associate of the major medical organization in this metro area which treats transgender people.
As a result, it’s very difficult for me to even be open to questions about the validity of me and my people. I’m trying very hard to be such.
I really think that the majority of people who hate, fear, or think transgender people are “icky” or “crazy” would change their minds if they spent a day really communicating with an actual transsexual. The exposure of most people is either to drag queens or crossdressers, or from what they see on television and movies. Spend a day with me, or my friends, and they would gain an entirely new perspective.
Then you better take it up with medical science, because biological sex is determined by sex chromosomes and anatomy/physiology. For thousands of years ‘biological sex’ was determined at birth by the presence of genitalia. Even today, when determining sex in utero via sonograms it is the presence of external genitalia that is the method of determination. When noting the biological sex on a birth certificate a genetic test for sex chromosomes is not usually performed (unless sex can not be determined by external genitalia).
Gonads and anatomical structures are biological. Defining them as ‘gender characteristics’ is woefully inaccurate. Sex chromosomes (primary characteristics) are sex determinants in that they provide instructions for how these anatomical and physiological structures (secondary sex characteristics) develop, but there is apple evidence that secondary sex characteristics don’t always develop according to sex chromosomes. Perhaps, you should narrow your search from ‘biological sex determinants in mammals’ down to ‘biological sex determinants in humans’ since that is what is actually being discussed.
I suspect you are getting your definition from here:
Chromosomal Sex Determination in Mammals
If so, you should read past the first paragraph.
In humans, biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:
[ul]
[li]the number and type of sex chromosomes;[/li][li]the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;[/li][li]the sex hormones,[/li][li]the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females), and[/li][li]the external genitalia.[/li][/ul]
People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female are intersexed.
You say earrings and tattoos are the same as this…
What the hell? You can’t tell the difference between hanging Christmas lights on your house and partially demolishing it?
As a woman, I don’t want a penis, the one organ that could not only potentially be used to rape me but also get me unwillingly pregnant, in a room full of small enclosures wherein I’m going to pull my pants down. And I don’t care whether that penis belongs to a man, a woman, or someone in between.
Do you understand that a trans woman has a much MUCH higher chance of being raped or assaulted than you, and making her use the men’s room further increases this risk? I mean, I understand your fear (sort of) but can you not then extend that feeling to the woman in the other stall, who just wants to use the toilet safely?
Well, there’s no question that a post-op transwoman or one currently undergoing hormone therapy (even if she never plans on getting the operation) can come in. Of course she can. I just don’t want fully unisex bathrooms where absolutely anyone can walk in regardless of who else is there.
For a transwoman who both outwardly appears male and still has all the male functions, I haven’t thought about it for long enough yet to decide. Because then you’re weighing risk to one person or group against benefits to another, and I can’t say who has more cause for concern.
But men? Nuh uh, get them out of my piss shack. When the day comes that rape almost never happens, and is always punished when it does- then we can have truly unisex bathrooms.
I realize that neither penises nor penetration are required to commit a rape.
With attitudes toward abortion getting increasingly hostile, pregnancy from a rape becomes a worse situation to be in with every law passed. And being raped is bad enough without having to worry about what to do with the pregnancy.
To the best that it is possible for me, as someone who can only imagine (and obviously poorly at that) what it must be like to have gone through what you have gone through and continue to have to put up with, I do. Which is why I am so appreciative. Speaking as one of likely many here, (and likely in the other venues that you have presented at) my understanding is still far from complete and obviously I neccessarily view the subject from a different vantage point, but your efforts have significantly reduced my ignorance. We are educable. Most of us. Again, thank you.
You presented a dichotomy in which you were asking me to say whether I thought your position was ignorant or delusional, that’s the premise I was rejecting. I would instead say that the concept that there are other useful definitions of the term “sex” is not a valid place to begin discussion from.
I do think now we have arrived at a semantics discussion. Most important: do you think someone with XY who identifies as a woman is a biological male, yes or no?
You are confused and this list is not accurately represented by you. I actually mentioned that a biologist would typically determine sex based on a physical examination, because that almost always works. But what about an individual with perfectly intact female genitalia but XY chromosome? Most likely no one would know right off the bat, but they would technically be “males misidentified as females.” Or an intersex person? They would be “indeterminate” on physical examination and would require you to look at the sex chromosomes to determine sex.
You’re proposing something that is simply not true here, and you are confusing common techniques for identifying sex with the actual scientific, hard boiled definition of mammalian sex.
Ok, rad. We’re on the same page. When you said you didn’t want anyone in the women’s basthroom with a penis, whether they were a woman or a man, I thought you were specifically excluding transwomen who’ve not undergone SRS. I misunderstood you.
I don’t think there’s really such thing as a transwoman who wants to use the women’s room, but outwardly appears male and has all the male functions, and Una has backed me up on this. I can’t say it could never happen, but it doesn’t seem like it has.
I’m ok with unisex bathrooms, and I have to admit that I don’t feel putting a sign on the door that says WOMEN is really doing much of anything to prevent rape, but I respect your position.
You’re also confused and failing to differentiate primary sexual identification from the development of secondary sexual characteristics along one of the two phenotypes.
In humans homogametic individuals are biological females and heterogametic individuals are males. I should also repeat that GID is distinct from various birth or developmental defects resulting in someone with a physically intersexed set of reproductive organs. There is obviously overlap, but we in a discussion about GID I find it strange people keep bringing up things like Turner’s, Kleinfelter’s and other things.
If you want a biological definition, then you need to provide more information.
What type and how many sex chromosomes?
What type of gonads - ovaries or testes?
What type of internal reproductive anatomy is present? (i.e. uterus)
What type of sex hormones?
What does the external genetailia present, male or female or ambiguous?
If someone is XY, but there is other variation in any of the above biological sex characteristics then they are biologically and medically defined as intersex - despite their XY chromosomes. You can say they are genetically male or chromosomally male, I suppose, but biologically they are not because all of their biological sex characteristics do not present male.
You seem really stuck on the XY or XX definition of sex, when it is just one component of biological sex.
Speaking as the intersex transwoman in here who has in fact been raped and sexually assaulted on two occasions, you are under virtually zero risk from a transwoman, even if she has the evil penis.
I’m going to bounce off your post to make a general comment. I understand that you accept HRT or post-op transwomen.
I’ve been searching for cases where a transsexual woman (meaning, on HRT) has raped a woman in a female restroom. I have awesome access to databases, news sites, etc. but I’ve never found a single instance. Not a one. I’ve found women molested by male drag queens, and a few males not on hormones and not diagnosed by anyone other than themselves who committed sex crimes. Or child molestation and pedophilia. What’s the rate for HRT-taking diagnosed transwomen? More than zero? I’d like to find some reports of it, because I can’t so far - only fakes, crossdressers, and men in drag.
Mind you, I haven’t searched everywhere and everything, but speaking to the general audience in the thread, where is this risk from a transsexual woman with a penis?
Do folks understand what the thermonuclear-level of estradiol does to a transwoman? While some have more sexual activity due to the incredible sense of relief and positive feelings they have, a large majority lose their ability to have or maintain an erection. After a few years, even Viagra won’t do it. A large number of them lose all sexual desire. A large number of them are so disturbed by their own genitalia that to use it for sex is daunting.
So I can’t really find any reports of hormone-taking transwomen raping or molesting other women or children in the bathrooms. However, I can find about 200 cases of hormone-taking transwomen being mocked, taunted, beaten, kicked, stabbed, and even killed as a result of being attacked in bathrooms.
So speaking generally, who’s the one really at risk here?
Again, you’re confusing sexual development along a phenotype with actual biological sex. A biologist has no problem identifying the sex at fertilization, before any of those other things are even knowable about the organism.
Um no, you are presenting one component of biological sex, chromosomal sex as the only biological definition, when it is not.
And actually no, homogametic individuals are NOT always biological females, and heterogametic individuals are NOT always biologically male as evidence by my quotes upthread taken from Chromosomal Determinants of Sex in Mammals. I understand fully the difference between primary and secondary sex characteristics.
I think you are also failing to understand the the use of ‘determinant’ in the context of genetics and biology. ‘Determinant’ does not necessarily mean ‘defined’, it means cause or influence. Chromosomal sex causes or influences secondary characteristics, whereas the testes or ovaries do not cause XX or XY. Which is a common misunderstanding and I should have been more precise in my use of language as well. However, as evidence by genetic XX or XY individuals who do not present with the accordant male or female secondary characteristics, chromosomal sex is not the sole biological determinant sex.
It’s not necessarily about rape or assault. Males, as a rule, are bigger, stronger, more assertive, and more aggressive. Their mere presence is more intimidating, even when all other things are equal. Other women are not so intimidating.
Generally speaking, women like more privacy when toileting, and are probably much less likely than males to be “indelicate” about someone else’s bodily functions. For whatever reason, women trust other women more than men in restrooms, although even then there’s a lot of “bashful bladder” and I’ve run into women who are trying to wait for a moment when no one else is around to have a BM. They will sit in a stall and wait until the coast is clear if it’s at all possible.
Then there are the other paper products - changing them and disposing of them. Women generally like to do that in private too. Females have enough disadvantages to contend with at the office (or anywhere else) without broadcasting to male bosses and/or male co-workers that they are menstruating.
I think most women would be completely happy if they didn’t have to share a restroom with anyone else, and it seems fairly universal regardless of age or cultural heritage. Most women seem to hate making their toilet business public or opened to scrutiny.
So, yes, it is somewhat unsettling for most women when a male intrudes on what most women consider to be a private activity in a somewhat private space (meaning a space allocated for women). I don’t know how to explain this peculiarity but it exists. Most women will hold it, go to another restroom, or just wait until the “guy” is gone if at all possible before sharing a bathroom with a relatively strange male. This has nothing to do with any anticipation of violence.
Now add in that most MtFs still read as “male” when encountered, at least early on, and it’s not surprising that most women are taken aback initially and feel uncomfortable.
I’ll repeat–biological sex is determined at fertilization–this is a fact repeated in the most elementary biology texts, not just one or two internet articles. That is not possible if as you assert there are a wide list of things that all go into this determination. You are repeatedly confusing secondary characteristics and sexual development outcomes with biological sex. Yet any freshman level biology text will state that sex is determined at fertilization.
The only real possible exception is when the Y chromosome is missing the SRY gene, as that is actually what contains the information needed for the organism to develop with the male phenotype. In its absence in mammals the organism will develop often times into a perfectly healthy animal with normal female characteristics. Some non-mammalians however would be non-viable in such a scenario.
In the case of a missing SRY gene, when the failure to develop any male characteristics is a result of basically missing the actual genetic material itself and not because of various other disorders one could argue that the individual is biologically female because they are really just an X or (XO) individual since their Y chromosome is basically wholly defective.
I was actually more offended that someone would despite someone who made a living teaching such a thing, as if it weren’t something worthy of being a profession. Part of my point is that such instructors serve a real need, and not just for transpersons.
Actually, I didn’t socialize much with other girls and women growing up because I didn’t feel I had much in common with them. For the most part what I liked to do was what the boys did, so it’s mostly the boys I hung out with when I had the chance. The major difference was that I was “flocking” with them not because I wanted to be one or felt I was one but because I wanted to do the same things they did.
No, it’s not the same situation. But I, too, am a woman who had need for explicit instruction in “female comportment”. There seems to be this assumption that these things come “naturally” to women and because it doesn’t to transwomen they aren’t “real women”. The fact is, it’s learned behavior, the main difference is that most (though not all) ciswomen are indoctrinated in these behaviors from toddlerhood.
Exactly. And I was stunned that I was challenged on this with an implication that if these things didn’t naturally come to transpeople, springing fully-formed like Athena from the brow of Zeus, then they weren’t really who the gender they were.
And in the other thread we have ZPG Zealot arguing that any true transwoman naturally passes, so anyone who doesn’t pass isn’t real.
At some point it becomes almost impossible not to conclude that people are fucking around with you.
That’s a very good question and I’m not entirely sure I have an answer to it. I do know that in these debates it’s not unusual for people to bring up tomboys vs. transmen. I’m not sure I could articulate it, but I’m very clear on the difference between those two categories.
I’m not sure I need to say more than I’m comfortable in my own skin, my own body. My friction with society are those who want to hammer me into restrictive roles. It seems to me that the friction transpeople have is that they are NOT comfortable in their own skin and their own body regardless of whether they in a traditional gender role or not.