Gender imbalance in GD?

While I think I have some intelligent things to say, I quickly realized that I’m simply not able to put them in words that will prevent misunderstandings that muddle the whole damn arguement. I get so sick of those, “Well it depends on how you DEFINE homophobe” debates. Plus, my lack of spelling gets picked on a lot more there.

I agree with the poster who said that men like to nitpick more. The men end up dragging out the debate with these tactics. So naturally, they are posting in these threads more.

You know, people, it’s a really simple thing. All you have to do is prove that it’s exclusively a male thing here to post inflammatory comments and draw out debates far beyond what is necessary.

Until then, I call bullshit. There’s two of you that have now asserted that, with your combined efforts it shouldn’t be hard to prove. Yes?

I haven’t seriously declared one way or another in this thread, Airman Doors. But this forum is IMHO, so why are you repeatedly asking for proof? What’s your point? The OP as much as admitted it might be a perception-related fallacy and asked if other people perceived the same thing.

Clearly you disagree, so you can post, “No, I don’t think there is a gender imbalance in Great Debates, and if I were so motivated, I can prove it.” Are you trying to win an IMHO thread? :slight_smile:

I’m male, and not a conflict seeker either - but I still sometimes manage to get drawn into arguments of this type, or sometimes I inadvertantly post something that draws a heated response. Or sometimes I’ll post a genuine flame out of sheer irritation.

I’m certainly no saint in this respect, but I do try to understand people’s points of view instead of simply looking for the weakest point in their argument (whethers its spelling, semantics or grammar). I’m genuinely interested in what people have to say.

Airman, I don’t think anyone here is saying its exclusively a male trait. I’m sure all of us know women who can disprove that theory. :wink: But I do believe that arguing technicalities on non-personal issues (an important distinction) is more of a male trait.

Airman Doors, I advise you to look at the title of this forum.
'Nuff said?

Interesting topic, Eva Luna! I have to warn you that my post on this is going to have about a million disclaimers.

First, I have no idea if there is a higher rate of participation of men in GD (either as it relates to the overall population of men, or the percentage of men on the SDMB in particular), however I would agree that it is my perception that this is the case.

However, another wrench in the works is that I’m often not sure whether a particular poster is male or female. There have been discussions about this in other threads – where people guess the gender of other posters, and there is speculation about whether some names strike us as more masculine or feminine, or certain posting styles come across as masculine or feminine. These threads are usually pretty light-hearted from what I have seen, with a lot of comments like “how funny, I thought so-and-so was a guy, but it turns out “he’s” a girl!” As this relates to gender in GD, this could be feeding on itself, with me assuming people are male based on their posting in GD, which shapes my perception of the number of men in GD, which reinforces my (possibly incorrect) assumptions about the “maleness” of various GD styles.

Now I don’t want to put words in Airman Doors’s mouth, so hopefully he will chime in on this, but I am guessing that his response might be something along the lines of “So if you don’t know, and you know you don’t know, then why are you letting yourself use your admittedly incomplete and possibly inaccurate perception as a basis for further contemplation of this topic?” And I agree, this logic is sound. If we were conducting a scientific study of Secret Formula X, I would be very wary of someone who said “well, since we don’t know very much about it, or what it does, I think the next logical step is to drink it, and see what happens.” Not a good idea, or in the very least, I’ll let someone else drink Secret Formula X.

However, I think women (in general, not all individuals) are often more comfortable than men (in general, not all individuals) with incorporating perceptions into their world view. (**** Make note of that sentence, I have another point that relates back to it!) As far as I know (NB: Most of my scientific knowledge comes from watching Nova and reading Scientific American, my science skills are definintely lay, that’s for sure), even actual scientists are somewhat uncertain as to what extent differences in gender behaviors are hard-wired in our brains as opposed to learned behaviors. And there does seem to be a relationship between the two – a biologically determined potential that is reinforced by learned social behaviors might be developed into a strong ability that manifests itself in adult men and women – for example, men being better map readers, and females having better skills in reading facial expressions and body language (the old “women’s intuition” gig). Even though the SDMB is a written mode of commication, I think the feminine tendency to allow for the fact that what people say is not always what they mean to say comes into play here.

Anyway, as this relates to GD, and society in general, it is my (female) perception that women are less interested in the style of debate offered by GD. This could be because this style was more or less developed by men, so the basis by which we judge “the best” debaters has a strong masculine bias. Back up to my asterisked sentence, I said “I think,” “in general,” and “more comfortable” as a means of expressing my desire to bring everyone on board with the concept that this is one way of looking at the issue, my way in particular, and your way might be different. I have been told by people that it is a “wishy-washy” way of speaking. If I have an opinion, I should declare it boldly – “Women are better than men at incorporating perceptions!” This is rather the foundation of the concept of debate: state an opinion, and back it up with facts. I realize that, and also that my female based skills (possibly hard-wired, certainly reinforced by societal values) for building consensus, promoting inclusion, and allowing room for the perceptions of others – I have to value the perceptions of others since I value my own – are generally not as highly rated within the structure of formal debate, by the very definition of debate.

What bothers me is not that debate has that structure – it is what it is. If I am a baseball player, and I want to play basketball, I need to learn new skills to play the game, I don’t except anyone to change the rules of basketball so that I can hit the ball with a stick. What I don’t like is the assumption that male communication is superior to female communication, that women would be better off if we master the male skill set so that we can compete, or at least engage in, male communication. In some ways, I feel that our society equates “male communication” with “human communication.” I shouldn’t be so sour, I do think we are moving toward more of a system where female communication styles are also valued and men are encouraged to learn to be comfortable in that mode as well – however this seems to cause some discomfort, as many rants against “political correctness” appear to have an underlying resentment of a non-confrontational way of speaking/writing/communication.

Oh, and lest I come off as a total harpy, I do recognize the fact that my own sense of male communication is not always that hot. But I do try to work to remedy this. If I see a bold statement, such as “Men are better at map reading than women!” my first reaction might be “ugh, what a blowhard, I know plenty of men (I married one) who couldn’t find their rear end with a map and a compass while I am the queen of Rand-McNally” and then give myself a time out to say "okay, maybe the qualifers like “in my experience” and “most men” and “tend to be” are implied, and the intent of the comment is probably more along the lines of “this is interesting, wouldn’t it be fun to talk about it?” and less like “you, delphica, personally suck at reading maps.” Cripes, there are way too many quotes in that sentence, but whatever. I try. It’s a two way street.

Okay, I’ll shut up now.

Czarcasm:

As someone who participates in GD, I object to the blatant and insulting mischaracterization that SnoopyFan and torie have advanced here, opinion or no.

Just because this is IMHO doesn’t mean that I can come in here and give any old opinion I want to, especially if it’s insulting. All I did was ask for some substantiation, and I don’t think I was particularly rude about it, nor do I think it’s worth Pitting someone over.

NOW I’m done.

Men may be more argumentative on the GD forum–but women are more argumentative in daily life.

Hows’s that for a new GD thread? :slight_smile:
But seriously:

-I think it’s true that most of the posters on GD seem to be male.But if that fact is true, what does it matter?
In real life–women are no less argumentative than men, and usually LESS willing to give in. A man may yell at his kid for not putting the screwdrivers back in the toolbox, or losing the 8mm socket wrench. But when a mother screams at her daughter for not keeping the bathroom neat, somehow it makes for a longer argument.

A man wont take directions from his wife while he’s driving–but when 2 women at the office try to decide who has to pay how much to the coffee-pot fund–its fun to watch the fur fly.

Well, I’m not.
This is not Great Debates. I read the OP. An opinion was given, and other opinions were asked for. Once you give your opinion, the proper thing to do in IMHO is to sit back and read the opinions of others, not debate their opinions with them by asking for facts to back up their opinions. If this thread had been asking for facts, it would have been posted in General Questions, not IMHO. Now, if it your opinion that this thread belongs in Great Debates, then say so. If you think that statements others make in this, or any other thread, is inappropriate for IMHO, then report it. The fact that you object to “blatent and insulting mischaracterization” is your own business. How you respond to it is mine.
If you wish to object to how I have responded, try to remember the proper forum to use.

Men dominate GD for the same reason they dominate debates in real life. They love to argue. They love to pound their chests, flashing their know-how, wit, and endurance. Debating is a sport. Men love sports because they like to compete.

I see it in real life too. I can say something as simple as “Masai wear neck rings” and the guys in my lab will object. Why will they reject it? Because this is how they think smart people behave. Whereas the gals in my lab will say, “Oh, really? That’s nice.” They may not believe me, but they aren’t going make the situation awkward by outright calling me a liar. Neither is inherently “good”. The boys are kinda obnoxious and arrogant, but I think the girls should care more the quality of information they’re receiving. Both sides could learn a thing or two.

I shy away from posting on most topics in GD because I have more opinions than cite-ready knowledge about stuff, so my posts don’t have a lot of weight. Also, unless someone is blatantly offensive and wrong, it’s rare that I can summon the energy to volly back and forth with them. Someone like december is easy. Someone like Dewey isn’t.

I agree, but I’m going to take it farther than that. People like to believe they are right and will argue accordingly. However, in male circles, Knowing When To Shut The Hell Up isn’t considered a valuable skill. A guy who knows when to shut his mouth will get less attention/approval than one of those I Am The Fearless Bearer Of Truth, Ya’ll Just Can’t Take It types. Add two or more of those to any discussion and the Bullshit Level gets pretty deep, but it eventually degenerates into name-calling, since the Fearless Bearer of Truth types will seldom admit to being wrong.

This along with not knowing other facts about other members is probably something that makes SDMB work, but it definitely has its trade-offs. IMHO one of these is that we are just speculating on the answer to the OP.

Also, IMHO delphica had many more interesting points and her post deserves rereading. However, GMRyujin brought up an important point that she missed.

Men are not only more likely to spread it but they are more likely to stand around in it.

If the answer to the OP is Yes I’m not sure what actions could be taken to attract more females. That being the case the only other remedy would be for males to restrict their contributions to GD.

Does this same problem exist in The Pit? If not; why not? Is that one of the differences between “debating” and “complaining”*****?

[indent]:smiley: [sup]*Note I didn’t use the “b” word.[/sup][/indent]

Well, hang on. Since I’m a man who doesn’t post often in Great Debates, and one who doesn’t care about pounding my chest or winning, why don’t we at least qualify this? These debating behaviors might be true of the men who tend to post in Great Debates. Kinda hard to observe the debating behavior of the ones who don’t post, eh?

Hmm… judging by the number of times I’ve been referred to as Mr. Broomstick in GD and other forums, I’ll have to vote that this is at least partially a perception problem. But only partially.

As someone who enjoys the spirited, pointed debates in GD, I find some of the comments here not only insulting but also hypocritical. Doesn’t it seem a little strange to talk in supercilious, self-satisfied tones about the arrogance of the posters in GD?

Look, if you don’t like the debate style there, don’t go there. I can respect that. What I have a problem with is you declaring your own communication style superior, and then refusing to entertain any disagreement with that declaration.

GD isn’t for you? Fine. That doesn’t make you better or worse than me.

And that’s my opinion. Czarcasm, by the way, isn’t an opinion something that can’t be true or false (such as the worth of someone who doesn’t like GD)? I’d think that statement such as “men like to nitpick more” has no place in such a forum, and properly belong in GD (and yes, I’m well aware of the irony of this sentence :slight_smile: ).

Daniel

I shoulda said – Delphica’s post is both insightful and respectful, and gives me something to think about. Thanks!

Daniel

I think it’s a coïncedence. I sometimes see more women than men in GD. Depends on which subjects there are, imho.

And - as in “real life” - There are always some women who enjoy having the last word, thereby “beating” the men.

[I have an aunt like that. *:: shivering:: *]

As it’s just “humble opinions” here, I’ll present a counterbalance to the “biggest penis” remark:

Women don’t tend to jump into GD because of the insistence on rigorous, logical, fact-based argument. Lines like “You’re just trying to make me feel small!”, “Why is it always my fault?” and “Look, you don’t have to be right all the time!” don’t get any credit there. It’s like throwing a cat into a dog fight and banning it from using claws.

(Since you ask: My mother, my ex-fiancee, and my wife, respectively. And they’re just a few examples :rolleyes: )