General anesthetic prior to death sentence?

[skypig]

First. Not a debate on the merits of capital punishment.

This has come back to the top of my mind after the recent horrific event.

Why is a general anesthetic not administered?
I’ve had a few, not unpleasant, but what they did to me while under would have been.

Once completely under, any number of options could ensure death. I’d think just another large dose of anesthetic, but really, you could cut their head off with a bread knife for all the “patient” would care.

Seems humane. What am I missing?

[Inner_Stickler]

The ability of your average prison death row attendant to be able to do their job.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

Finding a qualified health professional willing to put someone under anesthesia so they can be killed.

Said professionals are expected to use their skills to meet the patient’s legitimate medical needs or desires, not to serve the state to help execute people. That really undermines confidence in your practitioner!

[dam0]

What’s to say they’ll administer the correct dose of anything… Or keep a needle in a vain.

[KarlGauss]

In the current GD thread wherein many lament the ‘suffering’ of the late Clayton Lockett ostensibly caused by his “botched” execution, I posted the following which I think is apropos to this thread:

@KarlGauss

Speaking as a physician, and strictly in a technical sense*, I simply do not understand the problem that the states have in executing someone painlessly.

Every day thousands upon thousands of people have general anesthesia and are put to sleep quickly and without causing them any agitation, discomfort, etc.

I, myself, have had general anesthetics over a dozen times (a long story) and each time, upon awakening, I was struck with how sudden and decisive my loss of consciousness (had been).

Bottom line is that the executioners should simply follow a ‘typical’ recipe used by anaesthetists (but with a change in dose).

And, please note, by definition the drugs constituting the above recipes’ ingredients are widely available.

*i.e. I am not necessarily ‘for’ or ‘against’ capital punishment

With the above in mind, let me ask the good doctor Qad (or anyone else who knows the answer)- in the US, are physicians forbidden by their various professional organizations from participating in executions? And, if ‘anesthesia assistants’ (or whatever they’re called) are used in the US, could they not do the job?

Is it really the case that finding someone qualified to administer IV drugs is difficult, or is that most qualified personnel are prohibited from doing so?

Thanks!

[Gray_Ghost]

@KarlGauss

…With the above in mind, let me ask the good doctor Qad (or anyone else who knows the answer)- in the US, are physicians forbidden by their various professional organizations from participating in executions? And, if ‘anesthesia assistants’ (or whatever they’re called) are used in the US, could they not do the job?

Is it really the case that finding someone qualified to administer IV drugs is difficult, or is that most qualified personnel are prohibited from doing so?..

The American Medical Association really frowns upon it. “A physician, as a member of a profession dedicated to preserving life when there is hope of doing so, should not be a participant in a legally authorized execution.”
In, North Carolina Department of Correction v. North Carolina Medical Board, 675 S.E.2d 641 (N.C. 2009), the AMA filed an amicus brief urging that it and its affiliate State Medical Boards be able to discipline physicians who participate in executions beyond a very limited role. The NC Department of Correction tried to enjoin this, and I’m not sure how the case turned out.

From AMA Opinion 2.06, participation equals:

Physician participation in execution is defined generally as actions which would fall into one or more of the following categories: (1) an action which would directly cause the death of the condemned; (2) an action which would assist, supervise, or contribute to the ability of another individual to directly cause the death of the condemned; (3) an action which could automatically cause an execution to be carried out on a condemned prisoner.

These acts don’t qualify as “participation”:

[ol]
[li]testifying as to medical history and diagnoses or mental state as they relate to competence to stand trial, testifying as to relevant medical evidence during trial, testifying as to medical aspects of aggravating or mitigating circumstances during the penalty phase of a capital case, or testifying as to medical diagnoses as they relate to the legal assessment of competence for execution; [/li][li]certifying death, provided that the condemned has been declared dead by another person; [/li][li]witnessing an execution in a totally nonprofessional capacity; [/li][li]witnessing an execution at the specific voluntary request of the condemned person, provided that the physician observes the execution in a nonprofessional capacity; and [/li][li]relieving the acute suffering of a condemned person while awaiting execution, including providing tranquilizers at the specific voluntary request of the condemned person to help relieve pain or anxiety in anticipation of the execution.[/li][/ol]

I don’t know if participating gets your license yanked, but it looks like there’s a good risk of it happening. So M.D.'s won’t help out.

[j666]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

Finding a qualified health professional willing to put someone under anesthesia so they can be killed.

Said professionals are expected to use their skills to meet the patient’s legitimate medical needs or desires, not to serve the state to help execute people. That really undermines confidence in your practitioner!

Sir, I’ve gone under on “IV” twice. In both cases nurses hooked up the I.V. and inserted the drug that sent me to sleep into the line. I would argue that avoiding pain is a legitimate medical need.

[suranyi]

Note that I am not a proponent of capital punishment, but this is just what I have read regarding this issue:

There is something else besides the difficulty of finding people capable and willing to apply anesthesia in this context. Most people in favor of capital punishment do not want to use it either. The idea is that even if the death is to be “humane”, the convict is still supposed to be aware of his impending death at the moment of his execution, so that he realizes once and for all the badness of his criminal act. An anesthetized person is not aware of anything.

[Ferret_Herder]

@j666

Sir, I’ve gone under on “IV” twice. In both cases nurses hooked up the I.V. and inserted the drug that sent me to sleep into the line. I would argue that avoiding pain is a legitimate medical need.

Doctors do that in prisons already. What they don’t do next is kill the patient or let someone else kill their patient.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

What gray ghost posted. And since Nurse Anesthetists are licensed RNs first, they and their licensing boards tend to frown upon participating in an execution.

And j666, avoiding the pain of execution by inserting the IV line which will be used to give the execution drugs smacks to me (and to the majority of my colleagues) too much of participating in the execution, with the ‘avoiding pain’ being quite secondary.

[Son_of_a_Rich]

They could just use a gas chamber which connects directly to the exhaust of a car. The executioner just starts the car. Eliminates all the complications of the old cyanide method. The only problem would be that death penalty enthusiasts expect a certain level of discomfiture on the part of the condemned which this method wouldn’t (probably) provide.

[Northern_Piper]

One of the problems the death states are currently facing is that the drug companies which make the barbiturates usually used for the first stage will no longer sell them. If the death states start using the drugs that are used for general anaesthesia, wouldn’t the drug companies cut off supplies of re general anaesthesia drugs as well?

[Gray_Ghost]

@Son_of_a_Rich

They could just use a gas chamber which connects directly to the exhaust of a car. The executioner just starts the car. Eliminates all the complications of the old cyanide method. The only problem would be that death penalty enthusiasts expect a certain level of discomfiture on the part of the condemned which this method wouldn’t (probably) provide.

I think you’d have a different opinion of how merciful that technique is after you read accounts of how Nazi “gas vans” or “huts” worked, like those used at Chelmno or Belzec. They were effective in killing people, but the process was lengthy and horrific for all involved. Perhaps a mask supplying 100% CO would have more humane results.

Do a total nitrogen atmosphere, if you want to go that route, though if it were up to me, I’d bring back hanging.

[Son_of_a_Rich]

@Gray_Ghost

I think you’d have a different opinion of how merciful that technique is after you read accounts of how Nazi “gas vans” or “huts” worked, like those used at Chelmno or Belzec. They were effective in killing people, but the process was lengthy and horrific for all involved. Perhaps a mask supplying 100% CO would have more humane results.

Do a total nitrogen atmosphere, if you want to go that route, though if it were up to me, I’d bring back hanging.

I don’t know how horrific the Nazi death vans were, but it’s my impression (no cite) the ever popular method of suicide by car exhaust in a closed garage is rather undramatic.

[The_Second_Stone]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

Finding a qualified health professional willing to put someone under anesthesia so they can be killed.

Said professionals are expected to use their skills to meet the patient’s legitimate medical needs or desires, not to serve the state to help execute people. That really undermines confidence in your practitioner!

Well, there are Evil Medical Schools. They tend to be on isolated volcanic islands. The ones in the Caribbean tend not to have great reputations.

[The_Holdsworth_Effect]

Having lost a neighbor and classmate in highschool to CO poisoning while necking in a parked car with engine running, I’d guess it’s pretty sneaky. We have a CO alarm in case the heater wants to do us in in our sleep. I am ambivalent about the death penalty, feeling that too many are wrongfully executed. OTOH I believe there are people who gave been convicted of heinous crimes who do not need to occupy space on this planet. How is it that my enormously kind vet can put my beloved but terminally ill dog down, gently, and with dignity, and we cannot euthanise a monster?

[Duke_of_York]

@Northern_Piper

One of the problems the death states are currently facing is that the drug companies which make the barbiturates usually used for the first stage will no longer sell them. If the death states start using the drugs that are used for general anaesthesia, wouldn’t the drug companies cut off supplies of re general anaesthesia drugs as well?

Couldn’t they buy them in Mexico, I believe they have a large range available.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Duke_of_York

Couldn’t they buy them in Mexico, I believe they have a large range available.

It turns out the DEA isn’t really pleased when states try to import foreign mystery drugs.

Also, I’m not sure the Mexican government would be willing to play along. It believes the US violated its treaty obligations when several of its citizens were sentenced to death after not being informed of their right to consular assistance.

[Senegoid]

@suranyi

There is something else besides the difficulty of finding people capable and willing to apply anesthesia in this context. Most people in favor of capital punishment do not want to use it either. The idea is that even if the death is to be “humane”, the convict is still supposed to be aware of his impending death at the moment of his execution, so that he realizes once and for all the badness of his criminal act. An anesthetized person is not aware of anything.

IIRC there was a Supreme Court case that came down along lines like this, circa early-1980’s. A condemned convict asked to be given a large dose of a sedative to put him to sleep first, so that he could then be executed “in his sleep”. The state refused, and somehow the case got all the way up to the Supreme Court.

The Court ruled that such a procedure would be unconstitutional. The majority argued that it was somehow “cruel and unusual” punishment to execute a prisoner in his sleep. The condemned person had to be awake and know that he was being executed at the moment it was happening.

A great many people thought of this decision as a big WTF??? decision. What was the Court thinking?

Anyway, that was then. No such thing as lethal injection in those days. Today, we use a lethal injection protocol that specifically attempts to put the convict to sleep with the first drug. So I guess that old SCOTUS decision is no longer “operative”. And our prisons still can’t figure out how to do it right. :smack:

[jtur88]

The entire purpose of the criminal “justice” system is to punish. In the past two years, I have gone under general anesthetic twice, and both times, I felt absolutely nothing. They could have beaten me to death with a ball peen hammer. But “not feeling” the punishment would not have been consistent with the fundamental philosophy and central objectives of the system.

It has deterrent value. If I thought I would just be anesthetized to death with a cute girl putting a mask over my face, I’d be out there slaughtering people right and left, for failing to signal their turns, or forgetting to put ketchup in my bag at the drive-through window…