Genuine 'not guilty by reason insanity' case - Do you accept "He's cured?"

I was doing my normal web wander for odd news, and saw this item. Obviously, while the gory details are there, the ones that I’d think are most important for determining whether this James Yang is a hazard to the community are missing: whether he’d been diagnosed prior to his attack; and how responsive he was to taking them, while in treatment. Because of that, I don’t feel that we can discuss this case, specifically, in any signifigant manner.

Having said that, this case illustrates to me an important issue about mental health and its perceptions in the public eye.

My understanding is that every state in the US, and most places following English common law traditions, allow for finding a defendant not guilty by reason of insanity. I know that this is not a “get-out-of-jail-free” card. Certainly, not everyone remanded to such care is going to be a candidate for release. I don’t have stats, but my impression is that most people who are judged to be not guilty by reason of insanity do not end up qualifying for release.

So, my hypothetical is this: A man is found at the scene of a gruesome murder. Investigation leaves everyone certain that not only did he do the crime, but at the time, he was so far out of touch with reality that he met the standard for meeting the requirements of being not guilty by reason of insanity: he has no ability, anymore, to judge what is right or wrong.

To some degree, for this hypothetical, it doesn’t matter exactly what the details of the crime might be. I’d rather not show off just how sick my imagination can get with the details of the worst thing someone could do while insane, and still be unaccountable for their actions. Let’s just leave it as gruesome, and not discuss details, please.

Now, fast forward five years down the road.

The man involved in this case has been diagnosed, treated, and working very hard on regaining control of his life. He’s shown absolutely no desire to skip or evade his medications, and seems to be, for want of a better term, cured.

Would you want to keep him in custody anyways? Or, contrariwise - would you allow him to move into your neighborhood?
My thinking on this is that the time to complain about the man’s potential for release to the community would have been when he was found to meet the standards of being too insane to be held accountable for his actions. Once that was found to be the case, the potential for his early release to the community was there. If we, as a culture and society, are going to recognize that there are times and people who can’t be held accountable for their actions before a court of law, we have to be willing to accept that there can be situations like my hypothetical, or like James Yang’s case.

Having said that, I think that the public should have the right to see at least some of James Yang’s medical case notes. For me, one thing that would be very important is to be able to judge how likely it would be that several months down the road he might decide that he’s been cured, and doesn’t need his medications. It’s a common enough progression for people dealing with mental illness. And, as a specific example, it is part of what allowed the Capitol shooter, a few years back, to go back to dangerous modes of thinking.

So, as long as the person in my hypothetical wasn’t likely to evade his continuing treatments, I think he should be allowed to live whereever he can afford. Of course, I’d be pretty unnerved, having him for a next-door neighbor. I would probably want to try to befriend him, if he were my neighbor: If no other reason, it would allow me to have contact with him, and maybe be able to see if he were regressing in his thinking. Besides, as one nut to another, shouldn’t we cover each other’s backs? :wink:

I’ve put this in IMHO because I’m looking for a poll, I think, rather than a learned debate. If the mods think that this topic would be more at home in GD, please feel free to move it. I just figured it would get more attention here.

You’ve created an excellent OP; problem is, I don’t see how anyone can respond without engaging in debate of some sort. So…

Moved from IMHO to GD.

If there were a case where the defence could prove that the accused was legally insane at the time of the offense, but was currently not insane and was unlikely to re-offend, then I would be happy with the person found not guilty because of insanity being set free immediately. A possible reason for such a scenario would be the accused commiting the crime while under the influence of a drug administered to them without their consent or knowledge.

This question is very interesting, and not examined in layman’s terms nearly enough (I am assuming for my own sanity that legal professionals have been all over these issues and have them already carefully worked out). So what follows is only my opinion.

The first thing I would want to know is why the person was so far out of touch with reality. Here are some possibilities:

  1. He took a substance (such as PCP) which he knew would make him nuts and at high risk for violent behavior. In my view, this makes him as morally responsible as if he had done the gruesome deed in cold blood, and this person should go to jail rather than a mental hospital.

  2. He was at the time an undiagnosed victim of an organic brain disease resulting in schizophrenia or something similar. In this case I would be willing to listen to expert medical testimony if this medical condition could be reversed and the person cured, and on sufficient expert agreement would consider letting such a person go free. Provided that the cure did not depend on continuing to take medication (see next item).

  3. He was at the time an already-diagnosed victim of some condition that could be controlled by medication, who had stopped taking his medication. I would be reluctant ever to release such a person on the public again, unless there were some way to enforce the taking of medication (I don’t know what such a method would be).

  4. “Temporary Insanity” (I am reminded of that lovely old film “Anatomy of a Murder”, which was probably totally bogus in its legal arguments). I don’t know what qualifies, but if I were making a decision about such a person I would want a lot of assurances, backed up by lots of experts, that such a person would not have such an episode again. Otherwise I am not impressed by any claims of this type, and would be inclined to send such a person to jail.

The main threads running through these scenarios are moral responsibility, and public safety. Of course I would not hold the person in example #2 to be morally responsible for his actions, but would be strongly inclined against releasing such a person on the public to possibly strike again.

He should absolutely still be held in custody. Better yet, he should have never been able to use a not guilt by reason of insanity defense. He should have been tried on the basis of whether or not he committed said crimes, and should face all applicable penalities up to and including a death sentence. We keep monkeying around in the grey areas of a person’s state of mind while in commission of a crime and we’re going to be sorry. Arguments can be made that no sane person would ever break into a home and kill another person for a few bucks, but it happens all the time.

If the criminal’s mind is so far outside the norm of understanding right and wrong, how much different is it concerning standard techniques of ‘reform’ and will that person respond to the thread of re-institutionalization if caught again, or even if suspected of back-sliding into that mindset again?

If they are that broken, the only logical thing for a soceity to do is put them down like a rabid dog. Honestly, they can obviously not be allowed back into the free populace, and that only leaves lifetime incarceration (an unfair expense born by tax payers) or execution.

-rainy

In the UK, there’s a two-stage process.

First, the court has to decide (based on medical evidence) whether the accused is fit to plead. If not, they’ll be detained in a mental hospital until the doctors decide that they are fit to plead (“cured”, if you like), at which point they’ll be brought back before the court and tried in the normal manner for the offence - if they’re found guilty, they’ll go to prison.

If the accused is fit to plead, the jury can still bring in the verdict “not guilty by reason of insanity”. However, this again leads to indefinite detention in hospital, until the medical authorities judge that the person is “no longer a danger to society” - exactly the same test that’s used for criminals subject to life sentences.

The only differences, in the UK, between a legally insane and legally sane murderer, are that the legally sane murderer will have a “tarrif sentence” - a minimum amount of time he has to stay in prison, before any assessment of his risk to society is undertaken; the sane murderer will be assessed for release by the Parole Board rather than a medical tribunal; and the insane murderer will be detained in hospital (Broadmoor, Ashworth, or Rampton) rather than prison. The basic principle, that they’re not released until they’re not a danger to society, is the same for both.

R v Antoine is, I believe, the current leading case on the issue.

Would you therefore be in favour of “putting down” the mentally ill who haven’t committed any crimes? After all, they can’t contribute anything useful to society.

I didn’t say that someone with a mental handicap was incapable of contributing. Please don’t put words in my mouth, there’s usually a lot of foot in there anyway.

I was speaking about criminals, that is someone who has committed a crime. In committing this crime (as postulated by the OP a violent, gruesome crime, I’m guessing murder plus) they have proven they are extremely dangerous to the citizenry. If you carry that a step further and argue that this person cannot make the distinction between right and wrong, then what we know to be fact is you have a proven killer with no concept of right and wrong. Sounds like a candidate for the death penality if there ever was one.

-rainy

I think the hypothetical is too unrealistic. Mental illness is an inexact science and treating it is hit or miss. There is no cure, exactly, just treatment. The key to keeping him “in remission” so to speak is keeping him on his meds and in his therapy.

I think it’s reasonable that someone who has commited a capitol crime should lose his freedom. But I also think that when the government takes custody of a person, it’s the government’s responsibility to see that the person is safe and well treated.

I don’t think the man in the hypothetical should be free & clear - he did the commit a horrible crime, after all. I think it would be goig to far to give him the freedom to stop his treatment or do whatever he wants. But it might be in his best interest to put him in a halfway house where his treatment can continue to be supervised without the immediate issue of prison. And if he can be a contributing taxpayer, that’s good too.

My apologies. I don’t want to turn this into a capital punishment debate, so I’ll leave this particular issue alone for now.

This doesn’t address the critical part of the insanity defense. If someone is found “not guilty by reason of insanity”, the courts have ruled that they’re not responsible for what they did. Do you think it’s fair for someone to be punished for an act they had no responsibility for? Or do you regard execution (or, perhaps, indefinite incarceration) as something other than “punishment”?

I agree that people who are a danger to society should be detained. However, what if it can be proved that they’re no longer a danger to society? You may say, they should continue to be detained to punish them for what they did - but this doesn’t apply to the insane criminal.

I think this is a perfect solution. It keeps the person under supervision, but gives them a chance to do good for society as well.

OtakuLoki, I didn’t know we read the same. From Wednesday’s Wall Street Journal:

When it comes to curtailing civil liberties for security, I tend to side with Ben Franklin. I simply don’t have a clue how to properly deal with the criminally insane. Can they be reformed? At what cost? If the cost is a lifelong regimen of drugs and therapy, who pays and who monitors their dosage / attendance? I have no easy answers and contradicting personal feelings on how to handle this.

It’s an ill wind…

D_Odds

I find that very disturbing. I’m a manic depressive. Most manic depressives will become psychotic if off their medication long enough. At that point, they tend rather strongly not be a threat to others but do become suicidal. The idea that the government could require me to submit to forced medication is frightening.

There are really two separate issues here - the appropriate State response to the insane criminal, and the appropriate State response to the insane generally.

In Europe, at least, coerced “treatment” of the mentally ill is almost universal, whether or not they pose any risk to society. I’m glad that this may not be the case in the USA. However, I think this discussion should be confined to the mentally ill that do pose a risk to society, as they’ve committed criminal acts.

If someone has a mental condition that requires continuous medication to prevent dangerous behavior then society has 2 logical choices: Isolate the person from society or ensure that medication protocols are maintained.

Okay but

How do we establish what mental condition a person has?

How do we establish the medication protocols?

How do we establish what levels of force, forced entry, search and seizure etc are legal to find the person, take them to the doctor, and administer the medication?

How do we establish the penalties for people who refuse medication?
Postpartum Depression

OTTOMH, women suffering PPD are sometime a risk to their own children. If a woman experiences PPD, should the government sterilize her? After all, if she can’t get pregnant again, she can’t have another bout of PPD.

BTW If you think I’m being extreme, just wait til AHunter3 shows up.

Well see that’s my point. I don’t agree that being “insane” removes you from culpability for what you did. As I mentioned before, the act of breaking into someones home with the intent to rape, rob or kill them certainly something a ‘sane’ person cannot fathom doing. Yet for some (criminals) it is a regular activity until they are caught. Are these people insane, or just evil? For the purposes of the state trying to protect its law-abiding citizens I don’t think it should matter. They are a demonstrated threat and must be dealt with according to the magnatude of their crime. The “sanity” of the perpetrator doesn’t affect the impact on the victims. They (the perps) are responsible if they took the action. Where else would you place the responsibility?

I know this sort of bends the OP by arguing definitions and what not. So if this is another discussion altogether, feel free to ignore my ramblings.

Can we ever really know they are no longer a danger to society? No. So they should be judged by the same standards as the ‘sane’ criminals.

-rainy

You are obviously unfamiliar with the legal definition of insanity. Briefly, legal insanity is the inability to discern right from wrong or a lack of awareness of one’s actions.

Tommy Thief is breaking into a house. He knows that he is forcibly gaining entry into somebody else’s house in order to steal their possessions. He knows this is wrong. He is legally sane and competent to stand trial.

Raving Bobby is stabbing an innocent bystander to death. Bobby is convinced (after years of research) that this man is actually the AntiChrist, head of a Shadow Government, and is planning to kill Bobby and take over the world. Bobby’s delusions have seperated him from reality to the point where he cannot distinguish between right and wrong. Bobby is not guilty by reason of insanity.

Furry Frank believes he is actually a cartoon squirrel. One day, a man cuts in front of Frank in the line at the movie theatre. Frank beats the man to death with an umbrella. Frank may think he is an animated squirrel, but he knows it is wrong to kill people just because they make you mad. Frank is legally sane and competent to stand trial.

We can know whether or not the person is a danger to society by the same means, and with pretty much the same degree of accuracy, that we decided they were legally insane- A bunch of pyschologists, pyschiatrists, etc sit down and have long talks with the person, administer many tests, hold conferences with each other and testify in court.