Off the top of my head, try Kim Stanley Robinson, author of Red Mars. His Mars series is one of the best sets of books I have ever read, sci-fi or not.
But I agree, the genre is not as important as the author. C. S. Friedman is a good example of an author that writes exceptional sci-fi and fanasty novels.
Well, yeah. Greek is the language Plato and Aristotle and Sophocles and Euripides and Homer and Herodotus and many others wrote in. Latin is even more widespread; not only was it the language of Ancient Rome, it was the language of scholars for centuries. Not only was it used by Ovid, Virgil, and Plutarch, it was also used by Copernicus and Newton and Thomas More. The original is always better than a translation, but if I want a translation, I’d rather have one from one of today’s foremost Latin scholars than one done in 1745 or even 1945. Latin was alive even in this century. Catholic masses were held in Latin until 1960. Latin is also useful when studying science. It’s easier to remember what animal a Canis familiaris is, for example, as well as why the abbreviations for gold, silver, and lead are Au, Ag, and Pb (aurum, argentum, and plumbum).
Learning Klingon however, offers none of these advantages. No great works of literature were originally written in Klingon. It has never been anyone’s first language. It was created for a movie released a mere seventeen years ago, making it younger than most of the people on this board. Almost no one speaks it, and, unlike with the classical languages, there are no real benefits from learning. The whole point of translation is to translate a work from a language people for whom the translation is done do not speak to one that they do. After all, today’s scholars who know Latin translate literature from Latin, not to Latin. Since a translation is by its nature an inferior representation of the text, translating the Bible into Klingon is as pointless as translating John Grisham’s The Pelican Brief into Sanskrit.
Jesus Tapdancing Christ! How many clay tablets would a sanskrit version of the Pelican Brief take?
Marc
I understand that this is sort of a hijack, but who else am I going to tell these things, if not the Dopers?
Mr. Seawitch and I are both interested in SF and read it often (currently rereading some old John Varley, thanks). He’s also interested in gaming - and has recently started a side business making model pieces for games. So we had every reason to be wandering around a recent gaming convention.
While we’re strolling, we spot a tall woman, dressed in full leather Klingon garb and makeup, carrying on a very loud conversation in Klingon (making sure everybody noticed).
After we got home, we made fun of her for hours. It wasn’t really the Klingon, though. More that it was Mr. S’s ex-wife.
By comparison, I am the normal one. Hee!
You haven’t really experienced Grisham until you’ve read him in the original Sanskrit, I’ll have you know!
I probably know as much useless Star Trek trivia as anyone; I’ll gladly admit that. But there are some elements of fandom that make me, too, shake my head. Not so much the costumes. I think those are rather silly, but ultimately they’re not doing me any harm. The people who do really bug me are those whose devotion to Trek and/or to Roddenberry’s “vision” (whatever that means, exactly) has become so great that it seems to remove whatever critical skills and perspective they once had.
These are a few things I have been told, at one time or another, by my fellow Star Trek fans:
“Star Trek is the best thing that science fiction has ever achieved.”
“We have a moral obligation to watch Star Trek, so its ratings will be as high as they can be. Otherwise, it might get cancelled and Gene’s vision would die.”
“First Contact should have been nominated for an Oscar. It was a lot better than any of those other movies. Damn Academy.” (The nominees for Best Picture that year included, among others, The English Patient, Shine, and Fargo).
“Babylon 5 (or Farscape, take your pick) sucks. Why? Because it just isn’t Trek.”
“Bad Trek is better than no Trek.” This one really pisses me off, because it’s nothing less than an admission that they can make the biggest piece of crap in the world, and somebody will watch it as long as they slap the Star Trek name on it.
And my favorite…
“I can always tell if I’m going to like a person, based on whether they watch Star Trek or not. People who don’t like Trek are never as nice as the ones who do.”
I don’t pretend attitudes like these are held by all (or even most) Trek fans, and I’m not accusing anyone here of thinking like this. But I’ve run into statements like this often enough to notice the pattern. There’s a sort of insularity about this sort of fan. A refusal or inability to see anything other than Star Trek as worthwhile.
And I think that this also contribrutes to the anti-Trekkie stereotype. You run into a few people like this, people for whom Star Trek is the only human achievement that’s worth our time, and you do start to wonder. And it only takes a few encounters with such a fan for people to start thinking we’re all like that.
Why do I feel like I’m on a schoolyard, with a clique of “cool” kids taking it on themselves to decide what’s cool or not, who’s a dork or not, etc.? The frequent use of words like “dork” and “geek” above makes it seem there’s something about this subject that makes everyone reverts back to early teenhood. “People think you’re dorks!” --“No we’re not!”–“Lookit the gay fanboy”–“F*** You!”–“Ooh, he’s got a Star Trek novel!..Let’s throw it on the roof, hahahaha!!!”
Which I guess just underscores the point of the OP: no other pop culture phenom seems to inflame such raging passions/
I think I’m done now.
We weren’t making fun of the ex-Mrs. because she speaks Klingon. On the contrary, Star Trek fans everywhere are diminished because of her participation. Didn’t want to cause offense. Carry on…
Not if you sing it regularly, as I do. Yeah, understanding great works is so gay. :rolleyes:
Watch your phraseology.
If it’s not for you, fine, but why berate someone for liking a language, made up or not? I guess matt_mcl must be gay for being an Esperanto supporter (aside from that whole sucking dicks thing).
If you’re what “cool” is, I’d rather be a geek.
Esprix
Actually, I once got to be gay by being an Esperantist, so to speak. My third boyfriend, mia kara Matc^jo.
Testify.
The thing is, there’s a fine line between enthusiasm and mindless obsession. It’s probably fun to go to a Star Trek convention in costume (wouldn’t know, have never had the cash, though now I want a PsiCorps uniform! 
)but then there’s people who ruin it by going around pointing out all the minutiae. I mean, I couldn’t imagine going to a Renaissance Faire in street clothes, but I want to smack the people who come up to me and point out how non-period my costume is. Yeah, I know black was a color for nobility. Yeah, I know the bodice isn’t right, I got it from Victoria’s Secret for goodness sake. I know African djembe drums such as my beautious instrument weren’t really seen in Europe in the Renaissance. I usually look such detail-monkeys in the eye and say “Yeah? Well, you’ve showered, you have too many teeth, you wear underwear and socks and you can read. So leave me alone and go bother someone who cares.”
Whoa, lemme pull myself back to the point. People who become so obsessed with the details, people for whom a hobby becomes so serious that it’s not really fun anymore, people who ruin things for other people by just being cheese weasels … they set a bad example. And with nearly all groups of people, it’s the loudest and least representative people who get noticed. You see the guys walking down the street in Starfleet uniforms arguing about the declension of a Klingon word (does Klingon decline?), you don’t see the fifty people in the background who just simply enjoy Star Trek, who think it’s neat to hang out with other people who also enjoy Star Trek, and who don’t have ‘NERD’ tattooed on their forehead in big psychic letters.
(On a side note, I’ve experienced a similar problem as a Pagan … people see the local gaggle of wannabe Goth girls who make a big deal of casting love spells and summoning spirits, and they’re not aware that my coven has been practicing peaceably in the area for years. The movie “The Craft” didn’t help much, just as I’m sure “Galaxy Quest”, although an excellent and amusing take on TV science fiction, didn’t do much to help the standing of ‘geeky’ Trekkies/Trekkers/Trekkites/whatever in the eyes of the general populace.)
SO … point … hmm, point … oh yes! My point is that a lot of the popular image of Trekkies comes from the most obvious and glaringly geeky examples of the group. Ditto for just about any hobby/concept with a large following. Much is the ensuing suckage.
Must end post and discover caffeine.
Dragonblink (equally devoted to Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, Farscape, Akira and Lexx … refuses to make comparisons!)
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Have you ever seen the movie Trekkies? This documentary was probably the most hostile attack on Star Trek fans I’ve ever seen. Hosted by Star Trek’s own Denise Crosby this was released a few years ago and you can find it on DVD, video, and occasionally on HBO or Showtime.
Some parts of the program are pretty good. The interviews with various cast members from TNG and TOS are actually pretty interesting. But they really scrapped the bottom of the barrel when it came to the Trekkies. They found Trekkies that made people reading the Klingon bible look good. One of the Trekkies they interviewed was the woman from Arkansas who wore her Star Fleet uniform for jury duty during the whole White Water thing. I’m sorry but anyone who wears their Star Fleet rank to work, a fake phaser/communicator, and wants people to call her Commander has some serious issues. What next, a guy dressing up like Peter Pan wherever he goes?
It just wasn’t a fair example of Trekkies in general.
Marc
Um, was that a direct reference to this guy? If not, you’re about to get quite an education. 
I rather liked “Trekkies,” actually. Shows how much fun people can have, IMHO.
Again, I’ll ask - who cares if somebody wears a Starfleet uniform to work? They’re the minority, they’re not asking you to, so what? I wonder if the people who take such exception to this react similarly if someone wears a traditional African headdress to work, or a Muslim veil, or a Jewish yarmulke, or so forth. Big frellin’ deal.
Esprix
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It was. The substance of this thread is similiar to the threads about that guy. I think his web site mentions that he is divorced. I wonder if he had this fairy thing before he got divorced or whether he cracked after it happened.
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I think the behavior of those fans from Trekkies went way beyond the point of just having fun. Keep in mind that I am a guy who considers himself an obsessive fan. You and I can have a discussion about Star Trek or Babylon 5 down to minute details that non believers, I mean non fans, would find boring and stupid. Hell, we should try to meet at some sort of Sci-Fi Con one of these days. I think it is pretty clear that I’m in the friendly towards obsessive fans category. But even I have my limits.
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And again, I’ll tell you. I can have opinions about people and things that really have no impact on my life. Someone who chooses to wear a Star Fleet uniform to work is obviously trying to make a statement. In fact if you remember the movie she says she’s trying to make a statement. She doesn’t wear the whole uniform though she just wears the insignia, rank pins, and accessories like phasers with regular clothes.
Probably not. Most people see a difference between devotion to religion and tradition and devotion to a television show.
Marc
Which are no more important than others’.
And no less important.
Marc
javaman wrote:
I think he meant “gay” in the sense the word is used on South Park. I.e. not so much “weird” or “dumb” as … well … “weak”.
At a party several years ago, a buddy of mine got kinda drunk and said, “You guys are all fags. And I mean that in the most derogatory sense possible. I don’t mean the good kind of fags – I don’t mean gay guys who do all sorts of good things and stand up for their lifestyle and stuff. I mean you’re fags. Hic!”
Why, are you a homosexual? If so than I appologize.
If you aren’t, then get off my case. You aren’t the PC police.
If you wish to argue this point further, there is a ‘use of Gay as in weird’ thread somewhere.
That’s the diference between ‘cool’ and ‘not cool’. If something is cool, there is no need to defend its coolness. It is just accepted that that thing is cool. People instantly recognize the coolness. If you have to explain why its cool, than it isn’t cool. Kind of like telling a joke. Either it’s funny, or it isn’t.
Also, Trekkies don’t hold a monopoly on dorky enthusiasm. I worked with a bunch of Star Wars nerds. These guys would set up action figures on their workstations so they matched a scene from the movie. One guy even wore a Luke Skywalker Jedi training uniform to work. What really makes these guys dorks, however, is that they can never tell that other people are just not interested in this stuff and don’t want to hear about it at length.
I’m sorry, does it make a difference?
Well I’m not interested in hearing you go on and on about what’s “cool” and what isn’t, what’s “gay” and what isn’t, who’s a “freak” and who isn’t, so does that mean you’re a dork, too? I mean, I think so, but I’m not sure how you see yourself…
:rolleyes:
Esprix