Interesting. How do such people feel about the territories of Ceuta and Melilla?
ETA: Ninja’d with my question by ElvisLives. Left this window open too long.
You will not be surprised to know that the same people who decries the loss of Gibraltar will easily come with several debatable reasons why those are not the same case.
But that’s true of every political issue everywhere.
I counted from its conquest by Castille in 1462.
And I’d be one of them. Without going too far off-topic, read Tom’s own cite.
Point being, Ceuta & Melilla have been part of Spain itself since the 16th Century, long before Morocco became a nation – never mind an independent one.
In any event, why not settle it the same way proposed in the Malvinas/Falklands thread and this one? Let the people who live there decide. I have a pretty good idea what results of a referendum would look like…
One who, as Sr Siete puts it, “decries the loss of Gibraltar”? I’m just curious what the purported logic is that could be applied to one instance but not the other, and how it constitutes a clear, bright line.
Actually, no. I glanced at the second part of his sentence and used it – badly, on second reading – to segue into my post. Truth is, I don’t have much truck with Gibraltar’s current status and I agree it is being used as misdirection by the PP. Patriotism often crosses ideology thus it’s not hard to see why they are doing what they are doing at this time…pretty clumsy really.
That said, I was actually responding to you and Tom vis-a-vis the difference between Ceuta & Melilla vs Gibraltar.
For those who, like me, had never heard of Ceuta and Melilla before:
That’s an issue. But I was more curious how the Spanish would see the idea. Do they object to Gibraltar not being part of Spain or just to Gibraltar being part of the United Kingdom?
Not responding for anyone else but obviously the train of thought is the former and not the latter. Put it this way, I doubt there’s anyway in hell that the UK would allow a Spanish Gibraltar, say like just at the edge of Dover…treaties or no treaties.
And for additional background, there’s the link in my post!
;)
I’m not sure I’m following your point here. Your second line seems to contradict your first.
There are a number of small independent nations in Europe - Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican City, Liechtenstein - and the neighbouring larger countries seem generally okay with them. What seems to be contentious is when a country has an enclave of another large power - West Berlin, Heligoland, Kaliningrad, Trieste, Calais - on its border.
Still, the whole issue is largely symbolic and a question of national pride. Whether the UK has military outposts there is irrelevant because
a) We are both NATO and serving the same master anyway.
and b) We are not at war, nor would we last a week if we ever entered in a war with Liechtenstein, let alone the UK.
Liechtenstein: Europe’s Go-To Laughable Hypothetical Foe.
Nah, that’s Italy.
ducks
And the Liechtenstein First Assault Brigade quietly adds Elendil’s Heir to The List and goes back to sharpening their knives…
Just curious - why does Spain make a periodic fuss about border crossings there? Either there is no border, or it’s an intra-EU one, so why not just be cool about it, everyone?
Gibraltar is indeed part of the EU, but it is not part of the Schengen Area, although some believe that Spain would not object to Gibraltar joining Schengen.
So, there are border checks between Spain and Gibraltar for the same reason that there are passport checks between France (Schengen) and the UK (non-Schengen).
.
IIRC the UK can’t simply grant Gibraltar it’s independence without first offering the territory to Spain under the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht.
And I chuckle and think, “Liechtenstein. That’s cute.”
It’s one of those longstanding things that occasionally bubbles up to the surface again, as it did several times under Franco’s dictatorship. It’ll subside again, eventually.