give me a reason to respect the military

Great Debates
1

Let me state first of all, there ARE some military people that I can respect. I have met WWII veterans, people who put their lives at risk to fight Hitler. And there’s plenty to admire about them. I’m not a pacifist. Sometimes you have to go to war to defend your freedoms. Fighting for a just cause makes you a hero. Maybe you went to fight in Viet Nam because you thought it was a just and necessary cause. I wouldn’t agree with your opinion, but I can respect your decision, and admire you for it. There are also people who have been unwillingly conscripted and forced to fight a war they didn’t like. I will not disrespect those people either. I can respect the ones who joined up to fight a specific war, and then went back to civilian life once that war was finished.

The ones I question are those who choose the military as a career, and who thus volunteer to go to any war they are sent to. Just cause, or unjust one, they will fight it.

In a recent thread a mother was asking advice about military recruitment for her son. The son does not want to join, and expresses an objection to the current conflict in Iraq. Several current and ex military dopers have advocated the position that he should set aside his personal feelings, and join anyway. They emphasize the personal gains he might make from the experience. One expressed it like this :

Speaking for myself, I find this to be pretty appalling. I am having a hard time understanding why this is something to admire, or behaviour to encourage. I therefore invite the dopers to give me something about this that I should respect.

I must emphasize that this is not directed at Sunrazor’s son in particular, but against career military in general. Those who are willing to go to war, and treat it as just doing a job. People who are willing to fight for any just cause, or an unjust one, out of “need for a salary”. People who will say to themselves “this is wrong” but go and do it anyway for pay. It seems to me that people who do that are no better than hired thugs. Sellouts. Hypocrites. Prostitutes, in fact.

To make this point clear, if someone thinks the Iraq war is a just and necessary one, and is willing to go and fight it, then I can respect that. But if someone thinks the war is wrong, but goes anyway in order to get money, what is there to respect?

I invite military supporters to explain why this career choice is an honourable one.

Here’s a couple of related dilemmas for you.

Dilemma No. 1

This is what one military doper had to say:

There speaks a man who quite openly puts career opportunities ahead of personal ethics. In the original thread he was giving advice to a mother who wants her son to enlist. But consider this: he is currently employed as a military recruiter. His career currently depends upon persuading people to enlist. He has a quota to meet, and is having trouble reaching it. Getting the kid into the military may advance his own career. However, it might not be so rosy for the kid. Why, then, should we trust his advice? Can we be sure that the advice he gave was honestly motivated? Or could it be entirely motivated by a desire for career advancement?

If lying will advance his career, why wouldn’t he lie? Of course, he may very well object to lying. But would that stop him? Should the career opportunities offered by the military be shunned because he does not agree with lying?
Dilemma No. 2

If I should admire the military on our side, then what about the military on the other side? Should I admire them too?

What about young Japanese men, who joined the military, to gain training and salary and career opportunities that would never be open to them back home on the farm. Then when the order came to attack Pearl Harbor, they obeyed without question. If any of them had moral doubts about the justness of their actions, they put it aside, and just simply did the job they were paid for.

Should I thank them for their service? Is there something to admire in their actions? Were they doing something noble by serving their country and following the orders they were given?

2

It may sound trite, but if you have to ask this question, I don’t think you will ever understand.

The view must be nice from up in that tower. Or did you quit every job when you discovered that the company had done something you disapproved of?

3

There’s a difference between finding out a company you already work for has done something of which you disapprove and joining a company that you know in advance is in the process of doing something of which you disapprove.

4

try me.

No company that I worked for ever asked me to kill anyone.

5

No organization of any kind can operate if the people in it decide to do or not do their jobs based on their personal opinions.

6

If enough of the people in it decide that what the organization wants to do is morally unacceptable, maybe they’d be doing a good thing by preventing the organization from performing that operation.

7

Ok, Peter - we live in an unjust world man. Come on, you’ve got to know that, right?

8

Any military, particularly a modern one, needs career soldiers. We can not rely on people to enlist once a conflict starts because they find the cause just. By the time they are trained it will be too late. The purpose of the career soldiers, especially the NCOs is to keep the new guys alive. You have a problem with having career soldiers? I would rather have professional NCOs and officers than the alternative. Look at the mess the Soviet Army was without a strong core of career soldiers. Their main weakness was that most of their Army was made up of conscripts. Most of the NCOs were second year conscripts. What is your alternative?

And this isn’t really what I wanted to write. I was pissed at your threadshitting in the other thread and your misinterpretation of what the thread was about in this one. I will refrain from anything else about that.

9

There is a difference between disagreeing with, say, our current Iraq policy and being against it. There are also a lot more ways the military is used (Afghanistan, relief missions, anti-terrorism work in Africa, etc.).

Now, if you are completely against killing - you should not join. If you are closer to Der Trihs in your opinion of the Iraq War, you should not join. If you don’t find the risk/reward ratio to be within your parameters, you should not join.

However, you can choose to serve your nation in the military while still having some disagreements with how the military is used.

As for how you see the opponents, a lot of military guys have no animosity towards other uniformed soldiers. Killing them is just their job. You can get a feel for that with the various Christmas cease-fires during WWI, for example.

10

Or to give the real quote since Peter decided to edit it in his OP:

I do not expect to hear any logic from someone who in the original thread equated a mother looking into and encouraging career options for her adult son to the draft in Viet Nam.

11

This is exactly why I am for reinstituting the draft. As a Vietnam vet, I feel that the fewer professional types (“my country right or wrong - although it is never wrong”) you have in there and the more questioners and complainers, the better I like it.

No, that type of military is not going to take over the world, but do I really want that?

12

So far you have not actually addressed my questions.

13

I think a person can believe in the larger goal of an organization, disagree with the immediate actions of that organization, and still work within it. I think there are some good reasons to respect those who join the military that go beyond the immediate views of the Iraq war.

One is the fact that most of the people who join the military want to serve their country. They could choose to take a job elsewhere, perhaps at more pay (perhaps not), but certainly with greater freedom of job choice and a much greater likelihood that they would be home every night. But they would rather participate in an organization that they feel makes a positive difference to their country.

A second reason is that many of these people join with the understanding that they may well be killed in the pursuit of their desire to do something for their country. They are willing to take that risk. I doubt that any of them want that to happen and they work to minimize the chances that it will happen, but they are willing to do that nonetheless.

Third, many (and probably most) of the people in the military are extremely dedicated to the well-being of their colleagues, and are willing to be killed or wounded to protect them. Particularly for those who are in combat, it’s a given that they will do pretty much whatever they possibly can to keep their fellow soldiers from harm, and to take significant risks even to recover their bodies if they are killed.

Certainly there are those who are selfish, manipulative, or have any number of other undesirable qualities, just as we see in the civilian world. There are those who join who do so because they have some desire to wield power over others. But for the most part, I think those are the minority (and most likely a small minority).

I’m not in the military and never have been. But I know people (including members of my extended family) who have been in the military for short periods or who have made it a career. Most of them are pretty bright and none of them have any major character flaw that would make you think that they joined because they were brainwashed, wacko, or anything else. They did it because they believed in the bigger goals of the military and the country, whether they agreed with the immediate policy or not. I have a lot of respect for what they have done.

I personally work for a government organization that is currently following and setting policies that I think are in many ways quite stupid, and probably harmful in the long run. It hasn’t always done that, and directions will change in about 8 months. I strongly disagree with some of what the upper administration officials are doing, but I stay with it because I know that I can make a positive difference in the long run. Am I lying to advance my career? No, I don’t think so. I state my position and recognize that my position may be respected, but the President has decided (wrongly, in my view) what the policies will be and I can’t change that. Should I resign in protest? That won’t do anyone any good. I might feel morally superior for doing so, but again, that’s not going to change the President’s mind, and I can continue to contribute in ways that will either minimize the harm or prepare for making real progress once he leaves.

Maybe you won’t respect me for working for an organization that is behaving in a way that is contrary to my beliefs, but I see that as your problem, not mine. I know that I can make a positive difference where I am at, and I have no doubt that most people in the military feel that they are making a positive difference as well. It’s an all-volunteer service, and they are there because they feel that they are doing what is right to them.

(edited to make a minor grammatical correction)

14

OK

Ignoring the edited quote. What does that have to do with the military? In many or most jobs you can get ahead by lying and cheating. There is no reason to believe that the Doper known as SSG Schwartz is lying or has lied to further his career. In fact I have only read of his great pains to be as truthful as possible in his job. None of your questions about it have anything to do with the military, just basic business ethics.

15

Respect doesn’t mean you have to kiss the ground they walk on, in my opinion. You should extend them the same common courtesy you would extend to any other citizen.

You disagree with the policy with Iraq. Fine. But the military does not get to decide which wars to fight.

Let me repeat, because it’s important: The military follows the directives of the civilian leadership appointed over them.

They may refuse unlawful orders, but those parameters (of trying to judge which orders are lawful) are also written by those very same civilian legislative/policy makers.

Do you really want a military that sees itself as independent from, as opposed to subordinate to, the elected civilian leadership of the country?

But to blame the entire military for Iraq, and hold them in contempt (which is what you will be left with if you have no respect), for it, is misdirected anger, IMO.

Somebody who volunteers for the current US military has decided that to do so for various reasons, including educational benefits, job training, and so on.

But they also feel that the US is a decent enough country to serve for. We may have duds in the White House or Congress from time to time, but overall the system ain’t a bad one.

They serve under conditions a lot of other folks would find unpleasant, or even intolerable. (“Community showers?? No hot water?? How assinine! Toilet stalls without doors?!? Where is the respect for my privacy?!?”) The length of the work day sucks, with no overtime pay. Lots of colateral duties that seem mundane, tedious, and boring (or even pointless). Red tape abounds, and the mediocre people can’t get fired (meaning you may have to pick up the slack). And occasionally, you might encounter some folks who are actively trying to kill you.

That’s a whole lot different than your standard 9 to 5 job.

16

Here’s a question for you: have you ever had to do a job for a customer you didn’t like? You did it anyway, to the best of your ability, didn’t you? It’s much the same thing.

17

OK - to go back to the OP’s key question.

The reason to respect those who serve is that they placed their life on the line. They have taken a job where they can be ordered to die, because some combination of pay and a desire to serve is worth that risk.

I respect that their willingness to serve our nation outweighs the risk to life and limb, even if some of the situations where they risk themselves I think our nation should not have been involved in.

A side note: I will spend tomorrow morning placing flags on the graves of veterans at the local cemetary. On Monday I will be part of a ceremony honoring those who gave their life for our nation.

18

I resent that implication. I merely cut out a few superflouous words, which does not change the meaning of what he said in any way.

It has to do with him as a person. And whether I should respect him as a person, that is the ENTIRE point of this part6icular thread.

He personally advocated setting aside personal ethics in order to pursue career goals.

I want to know why I should respect him for that.

And the fact that having such an attitude is pretty much a requirement for a military career.

19

You miss the whole point. I’m not interested in discussing the way the military is run. I want you to justify the morals of the individuals who join.

Some people are willing to and fight in an unjust war, purely because they are paid to do so. Not fighting tpo protect freedom. Killing for money.

Tell me where is the honour in their actions.

20

Very few feel that they are fighting an unjust war, however. Those that do have already quit for the most part. I have talked with plenty of Iraq veterans, and they talk about the GOOD that they are doing. They have talked to people who were under Hussein, and those people are very happy to have the Americans there.

You are taking your belief about the war and applying it to all members of the military. A lot of those men and women believe in what we are doing, or at least believe that if they leave it will get worse.

Very few are just killing happy mercenaries, in my experience. Many might say that, but that is typically bravado and not reality IMHO.