Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking

Are you serious?? They’ve made entire movies about this! Do we need to cite the entire Operation Cyclone?

This seriously bugs me. You intend to have a serious discussion about 9-11/Al Queda and you don’t even know that the mujhadeen/Al Queda are basically a creation of the CIA and Pakistini ISI??? Do we really have to start at such a basic level?

Other fun facts:

The covert relationship never ended. US and British Intelligence service continued training the Al-Queda linked KLA up until 2000! Again, to fight against the Russians as a U.S./MI6 proxy. This is, of course, after the USS cole, and WTC attack take 1. My question on this matter has always been… exactly when did western intelligence services really break with Al Queda? In that light, I now have an easier time accepting that the CIA did meet with Osama in June of 2001 at an American hospital on Dubai, as has been reported many times all around the world.

And speaking of the 1993 bombing, here is a video from CBS news detailing how the FBI knew of the plot, had an informant in the group, and was “planning” to replace the actual explosves with fakes, but someone higher up decided not to. This would probably have been covered up but for the fact that the informant recorded all of his interactions with the FBI. Woops. Here is a NY Times article about the same.

Afghanistan offered to turn over Bin Laden to stop the indescriminate bombing of it populace. Bush refused.

Bush Family/Bin Laden links. While others called for cites, I won’t even waste my time. For example, it was major news of the day when and why Bush evacuated all the Bin Ladens from the US, even while all aircraft were supposed to be grounded.

Wargames on 9/11. The greatest coincidence of all are the war games that happened to be ocurring on 9/11/2001. It’s quite mindboggling. Wikipedia lists a few but not this one. Simulated Hijackings! Airplanes crashing into buildings! Phantom planes on radar, etc. These distractions/diversions might have been all that was needed to slow down/restrict the NORAD response. This further impeaches Rice’s initial 9/11 incompetency defense on 5/16/2002 “I don’t think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile.” You were supposedly preparing for it on that very day!

Further standdown evidence… Video here of Rep. Lee Hamilton interviewing Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta. With flight 77 rapidly approaching Washington and the Pentagon, after repeated updates to the VP, a WH aide was getting more and more agitated, Cheney snaps “of course the order still stands”. Presumably the order was to shoot down the plane, except we know that it was not shot down, it was allowed to continue on it way, into the most heavily defended airspace in the world. Now I guess we know what the “order” actually was, and why not countermeasures were taken. Watch the video for yourself.

Rumsfeld announced on 9/10/2001 that 2.3 TRILLION dollars missing from the Pentagon. That’s not mere billions, but TRILLIONS of dollars! That’s how many times the entire DOD budget?? And it’s unaccounted for and untrackable - basically lost??? Hear it from the horses mouth here or in a CBS news article. Of course, we never hear about this again.

The 9/11 Commission farce. Bush’s initial vehement opposition. Attempting to appoint Kissinger to run it! The administration limiting and cutting the funding, opposing a needed time extension, opposed turning over the presidential daily briefs (we know why after hearing about the 8/6/01 brief “Bin Laden Determined To Strike in U.S.”). Rice initially refused to testify. Bush would only testify with Cheney next to him, not under oath, no transcript, secret hearing.

Here are some
[quotes for the commissioners themselves!]
(http://www.911summary.com/)

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) “obstructed our investigation”.

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn’t bother to tell the American people

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .”

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”

…and on…and on… and on.
I generally find myself skeptical of “conspiracy theories” until I’m given some hard evidence of inconsistencies and outright lies. There’s nothing close to this much evidence in, for example, the JFK assassination. But in the face of all of the above, I have to admit that something fishy is seriously going on - without even considering some of the more controversial aspects - free-fall collapses, nano-thermite, warnings from foreign governments, obfuscated investigations, etc.

Yes, we do. I know all about the mujahedeen and the US involvement in that - I was an adult, and it was big news even at the time. The specific claim that I asked for a cite for, was that the CIA had dealings with ObL. Now you further claim that AQ was a creation of the CIA.

So, if you care to back up his and your assertions with cites, from non-kook sources, that would be appreciated.

Of course, that’s false.

No, it’s not. That’s what the military does in peace time.

That’s not a war game! The NRO office was located near a major airport, and they were testing whether they were properly prepared to evacuate the building in an emergency. The emergency they used to practice with was that a plane accidentally hit their building and took out a stairwell. They wanted to make sure they could effectively evacuate even without one of the stairwells. It’s wasn’t a war game. The NRO doesn’t do military exercises anyway.

This has been debunked so many times I can’t count. Please learn from others’ mistakes before you. That conversation happened after Flight 77 had crashed.

No, he didn’t. He said their antiquated accounting systems didn’t allow them to track it satisfactorily. He was pushing for better computer systems for Pentagon spending. No one outside of Prison Planet thinks any money is missing.

Notice how much of this shit has already been thoroughly debunked in this very thread? They’re just continuing their brute force tactics. And plugging their ears and screaming LALALALA. If it’s not a Youtube video made by someone who already agrees with their conclusions, it has no authority.

If you wait a few more pages then some of the other stuff already addressed will no doubt be brought up again as stunning revelations…

Round and round we go, where it stops, no one knows.

-XT

I’m seriously waiting for someone like Alex Dubinsky or NYC Chic to show up again and start babbling as if they’ve never seen this thread before.

So… New York Times, Washinton Post, Wikipedia, the Independent… all kooks, eh? Tell me, who do you believe (besides Fox News of course)?

Umm… there was “at least one flight” that went out carrying “Saudi Nationals” that left before commercial air traffic had been restored. They don’t specifically say that Bin Ladens are on board, but what other Saudi’s would fear for their safety so much? Is the Washington Post to “Kooky” for you to believe?

Cite?

Re: Wargames

Wow that was a convincing rebuttal. But you don’t think it’s at all suspicious that there were war games going on that involved hijacked aircraft showing up as phantom blips (“injects”) on rader screens? There are tapes of the air traffic controllers being confused… asking repeatedly “is this part of the excercise?”

If you buy all of these concidences, I’ve got some land I can sell ya!

Personally, I’m waiting for the Air France Flight 447 CTs to start. The authorities have already admitted they will probably never recover the black boxes. The way is clear for even the dullest CTer to screw his creativity to the to the sticking point and start making shit up with no worries that one of us will be able to counter it with nasty facts.

ETA: My money is on an extension of the Bermuda Triangle that includes the South Atlantic.

Not at all. However, what you have done is strung together snippets of fact from legitimate sources glued together, implausibly, with wild claims from kook sites or simply misrepresented the statements from the legitimate sources.

For example, your cite that Afghanistan offered to “turn over” bin Laden is a clear misrepresentation of the event. Afghanistan offered to send bin Laden out of their country, (IF another Muslim country would agree to take him), while explicitly declaring that they would never send him to the U.S. That does not qualify as “turn him over” by any normal reading of the text.

The rest of your claims are similarly useless.

Ah…the irony. Just when I think my latest and greatest industrial strength and SDMB tested irony meter can withstand anything…well, I get this earth shattering kaboom! No need to ask where was the earth shattering kaboom…

-XT

And don’t forget that soon after the Taliban ‘couldn’t find’ Osama, which at the time resulted in a few Pit threads on this board.

Eight days after 9/11 was after commercial air traffic had been restored.

I just read the article and referenced what it said. What else can I say? Did you actually follow the link I supplied? It’s in paragraph 5. Call the Washington Post and complain.

I’ll post it again for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4014-2004Jul21.html

Still, nobody’s touched anything the 9/11 comissioners had to say.

Everyone always wants cites here, but I’m seemingly the only one providing them. Please respond with more then just conjecture and random insults please. If I’m misrepresenting, please point out where. It would be nice if you could use independent, non-governmental references too. “Because the government says so” just doesn’t really cut it anymore. We know that even their “science” (climate change anyone?) can be manipulated and/or edited to show what they want.

The entire article discusses details about a flight that took place 8 days after 911, then in paragraph 5, without any details or evidence, it is reported that a plane took off during the forbidden period.

Trouble is, there is no evidence for this assertion excepts Lautenberg’s say-so. He gives massive details on the 8 days later flight, and the article adds more. But there’s nothing more on this alleged ‘no fly flight’.

I’m not going to complain to the Post for them reporting what a Representative says, even if said Rep has no evidence.

All I know is the major newspapers are fact-checked, while the SDMB is not.

The Times, Post, and Independent are all credible sources. Fox News, not so much. Now, can you tell me where any of them have reported the assertions I was objecting to, that a) the CIA had dealings with ObL, and b) that AQ is “basically a creation” of the CIA? Thanks!

Every source I can find, including this one that you linked to, says that the bin Ladens were flown out several days after the grounding was lifted.

Now that Post article does mention that there was one flight that went out before, but I haven’t seen that described anywhere else. My first guess is that this is an error, someone got a fact wrong in the few days after 9/11. If you can find another reference saying that any flights went out taking Middle East citizens out of the country, before the flight ban was lifted, I’d be interested to see it. I’ll look as well.

That the “60 miles out” conversation happened well after Flight 77 had already crashed? Everyone who was there, with the exception of Norman Mineta, knew this. The logs of who was in the room, have Cheney not even getting into that room until about 20 minutes after 77 had crashed. Mineta wasn’t in the room then either. The conversation clearly was about Flight 93, and its projected position towards DC before they knew that it had crashed. Mineta is a confused old man. Here’s a good summary: Norman Mineta - 911myths

It’s a small coincidence, that they would be preparing to deal with either Russian bombers heading into the US, or a hijacked plane on its way out to Cuba, on the same day. The scenarios are not very similar though.

But why would it be suspicious if the perpetrators ensured that the very organization who could thwart their evil plan, was fully staffed up with the best people, and had all the decision makers standing by? That’s evidence against a conspiracy!

I have posted no conjecture. You made a sarcastic comment that other posters were rejecting legitimate news sources and I pointed out that you were conflating good information with nonsense and then pretending that everyone else was rejecting the good information.

Go back and actually read the specific cite I debunked. Your own reference notes that the Taliban stated that they would not turn over bin Laden to the U.S., yet you claimed that they had made the offer and Bush rejected it.

If you are going to spin stories that your own citations do not support and then link to kook sites, I see no reason to spend any serious effort debunking one more troother.

There’s not much need to. The people you quote also state they consider the Commission to be a success. Sure, there was stonewalling by some groups, and some places the wagons were circled.

But that is why there was a Commission. To cut through all that. It took work, compromise, politcal arm wrestling, and more. But in their opinion, and the opinion of others the job was done and done well. There have been a couple of books covering it, including the one Keane & Hamilton wrote that your source cherry picked quotes from.

You’re half right. I am willing to admit it if a category of theory is debunked. But I’m not desperate to believe a conspiracy theory.

Want to kill the thread? Like everyone else, you’re free to categorically debunk whatever you like, up to and including the whole she-bang.

Then where are the details about this flight? Where did it take off? Who was on it? What was the chartering company? When did Bush sign off on it? Why did these nationals feel in peril while the others could wait until the grounding order was lifted?