Giving God Control Over Your life

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
I certainly mean no personal offense to you dangermom, but I find that statement so fundamentally disturbing, I’m not sure even where to begin. It shows such a completely dim and dismal view of humanity on the whole that it boggles my mind. I will willingly admit that we have baser desires, but to assume that we are that totally self-serving that without some higher power coercing us in to being something other that complete scumbags speaks of a horrid, horrid species.

If THAT is the kind of thought that a Christian god wants us to have over ourselves, it is no wonder to me that people stray from the “light.” Frankly, that is far more dark than I can manage on my own.

Reading this thread makes me very, very happy that I don’t think so poorly of myself or of others.
[/QUOTE]

Oh well, I suppose my view of humanity mostly depends on my mood. :slight_smile: I certainly don’t think we’re as bad as you describe my view to be, even in my darker moments. I do think we tend to be lazy and selfish. But I’m not a subscriber to the opinion that human beings are completely depraved. We’re pretty much a mix of good and bad; we have lots of good impulses, but it takes more work to make right choices than lazy ones. On the whole I quite like people, really. Theologically speaking, I agree more with C. S. Lewis (and FriarTed up there) than with Calvin.

Hilarity, we had just finished our grammar and so that’s what I put in. Feel free to substitute math or whatever if you like; it was completely made up off the top of my head. But I disagree with you about the value of studying the rules of language; I completely lack any formal grammar education myself and feel it very much (I’m trying to catch up these days). I’m only too aware that I write good English more by luck and instinct than by knowledge, and I don’t know where the gaps are despite years of voracious reading. I was 30 when I learned on the Dope that there’s a usage difference between “less” and “fewer.” If I can get that into my kid’s head before she puts it into her grad thesis–as I did–then I’ll consider that grammar homework well worth it. But that’s a discussion for another thread.

62

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
I think we are both. That every person is flawed is a matter of fact. Any self-reflective person will admit their imperfections & character weaknesses. It is the basic goodness of people that is a matter of faith.
[/QUOTE]

I think humans are neither inherently flawed nor perfect. What we have been given is an amazing mind that can adapt itself to living in mutual harmony with others, or of the most cutthroat selfish individualism. But most of all we have the capacity to choose our cognitive model to influence the behavior of ourselves and others. What some see as a “flaw” is our retention of a limbic system most appropriate for monkeys, and what some see as perfection is the hyperrational ideal that our higher cerebral functions seem capable of. Free will is nothing but the fact that we exist somewhere between these two extremes and can allow ourselves to slip toward the selfish and physical, or condition our minds toward the rational and transcendant.

63

[QUOTE=j666]
Care to expand on that? I’d like to see where you take that.
[/QUOTE]

Oh. . . I don’t think this thread is the place for it. But.

off topic/
(For full disclosure, I’m not what you would call a theist, but I like the traditional theological problems, and I don’t want to derail a thread that isn’t about whether there is a God, but more about his/her/its character and freewill. But in short, maybe it’s analogous to the puddle problem-- the sentient blob of water’s marveling at how the hole in the dirt was made exactly in its shape and it fits so perfectly into it, but in the end, it just conveniently happens to be that way. Not “random” but a system that is integrated and works the way it does because it can’t do otherwise and exist. The universe is a pretty snappy system, internally, so I don’t see a need for metaphysics-- that’s just adding unnecessary complications to the model-- even if we don’t understand it all. And if any of the laws of nature/physics were so in conflict that it was all impossible, well, obviously we wouldn’t be having this conversation since it wouldn’t hold together. We’re only here because what’s here-- physics, matter, etc-- has held together this long. (a cheesy almost sci-fi way to think of it might be to imagine how many universes might have started that DIDN’T work right, and don’t exist) Accident of cause and effect, but not random in the most common sense of the term, of willy nilly scrambled craziness. And that might be more gobsmackingly lovely and impressive than merely believing in a God. It’s a terribly unlikely universe, and that makes it absolutely marvelous. )

64

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
I think we are both. That every person is flawed is a matter of fact. Any self-reflective person will admit their imperfections & character weaknesses. It is the basic goodness of people that is a matter of faith.
[/QUOTE]

Guess you haven’t noticed in great disasters how thousands of people come to help and bring their money, food, and other skills to help those involved in the disaster. I am talking here about people who don’t have to lift a finger, but willing give their time and resources to others. During the OKC bombing thousands of Tulsans pitched in with everything from blood to heavy equipment, the roads were packed with volunteers. People are naturally good hearted, they help others without being asked. As I said, you have a choice, positive or negative, it is up to you.

65

[QUOTE=lekatt]
We are not fundamentally flawed, we are basically good people who have purpose and meaning to our lives through our relationship with a God that loves us all and wants us to be happy and enjoy our life. Some see only darkness and negativity, others see the light and positiveness, it is a simple choice. Chose the light and love or chose the darkness and fear. It is your choice.
[/QUOTE]

Most people are neither inherently good or inherently evil. They make choices based on imperfect information driven by many different motivations. If believing in God or religeon helps them find meaning and purpose and a moral compass, more power to them.

66

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Guess you haven’t noticed in great disasters how thousands of people come to help and bring their money, food, and other skills to help those involved in the disaster.
[/QUOTE]

While you ignore the looting that sometimes goes on when such disasters happen, till some form of civil authority is established.

67

[QUOTE=msmith537]
Most people are neither inherently good or inherently evil. They make choices based on imperfect information driven by many different motivations. If believing in God or religeon helps them find meaning and purpose and a moral compass, more power to them.
[/QUOTE]

All children are born inherently good, they are created in God’s image out of God’s love for them. It is rare indeed to find someone who believes themselves evil no matter what they do. They harm others because they feel justified in doing so. Even Hitler believed he was purifying the world. People make mistakes in thinking and actions. Those mistakes will come back at them, time and time again they will personally feel the pain they cause others until they realize “Whatsoever ye sow, so shall ye reap.” Now faith in God is the only way one will find meaning and purpose to their lives, unless they have connected with God and know there is meaning and purpose to life. I have no problem with atheists, or any other belief system. People can believe as they wish, as long as they don’t harm themselves or others. Society can stop those who harm others, but has a hard time dealing with those that harm themselves. We have free will, free choice, we can choose positive or negative, then we reap the rewards of what we have chosen.

68

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
While you ignore the looting that sometimes goes on when such disasters happen, till some form of civil authority is established.
[/QUOTE]

I ignore nothing, I chose to help, and hope others will also. Those that loot have their reward. Those that help have love, peace, and joy. The choice is yours, chose what you will, positive or negative. That is the teaching of the duality we live in.

69

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I ignore nothing, I chose to help, and hope others will also. Those that loot have their reward. Those that help have love, peace, and joy. The choice is yours, chose what you will, positive or negative. That is the teaching of the duality we live in.
[/QUOTE]

Yes people have a choice who to serve, they have free will to chose, and provided a moral compass, a conscience, but if unguarded that can be corrupted.

[QUOTE=Galatians 5:]
16But I say, (A)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh.

17For (C)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (D)so that you may not do the things that you please.

18But if you are (E)led by the Spirit, (F)you are not under the Law.

[/QUOTE]

I think it’s safe to assume that most people, Christian and non-Christian alike would agree that the laws of Moses (the Law as stated above) is impossible for man to follow in our world. So we are inherently corruptible as our nature, even if we do start out ‘good’ (a point I’m not willing to concede)

70

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Yes people have a choice who to serve, they have free will to chose, and provided a moral compass, a conscience, but if unguarded that can be corrupted.

I think it’s safe to assume that most people, Christian and non-Christian alike would agree that the laws of Moses (the Law as stated above) is impossible for man to follow in our world. So we are inherently corruptible as our nature, even if we do start out ‘good’ (a point I’m not willing to concede)
[/QUOTE]

I guess what you are saying is God created a faulty product because He is faulty. He created us in His image, or likeness, and we are as He is. God created perfection, because He is perfect. Man is not lost, does not need salvation. Man needs to learn and grow in the ways of his perfect nature. Jesus came to teach us and was killed for His efforts.

Several years ago I wrote a somewhat “tough” piece “Christian Criticism of Near Death Experiences.” It covers what I am trying to say here. It is not intended to offend Christians, but rather to get them to think. If anyone find it offensive I apologise now.

http://aleroy.com/forums/index.php?topic=32.0

71

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Several years ago I wrote a somewhat “tough” piece “Christian Criticism of Near Death Experiences.” It covers what I am trying to say here. It is not intended to offend Christians, but rather to get them to think. If anyone find it offensive I apologise now.
[/QUOTE]

No offense taken, but that piece is way off base, taking half truths about what the Word says. It is true that some churches have strayed and some have become tools of Satan himself, much of what you criticize about churches falls into that latter category.

I could pick apart much of what you state as from the Word as unscripturally by using the Word - you show very little understanding of the teachings of Jesus and His church in that link IMHO, and in past posts with you the reason is pretty clear, you only take what you want from scripture, ignoring the other parts, which is a dangeroius practice IMO.

Christians do accept spiritual revelation including DNE’s and that can be of God or the devil. When through such a revelation one meets God (Father or Jesus) there is a strong desire to worship (along with the feeling of perfect love you expressed) - that seems to be missing from your NDE - which would make me very suspect of what entity you really meet in your NDE and it’s real purpose.

72

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
No offense taken, but that piece is way off base, taking half truths about what the Word says. It is true that some churches have strayed and some have become tools of Satan himself, much of what you criticize about churches falls into that latter category.

I could pick apart much of what you state as from the Word as unscripturally by using the Word - you show very little understanding of the teachings of Jesus and His church in that link IMHO, and in past posts with you the reason is pretty clear, you only take what you want from scripture, ignoring the other parts, which is a dangeroius practice IMO.

Christians do accept spiritual revelation including DNE’s and that can be of God or the devil. When through such a revelation one meets God (Father or Jesus) there is a strong desire to worship (along with the feeling of perfect love you expressed) - that seems to be missing from your NDE - which would make me very suspect of what entity you really meet in your NDE and it’s real purpose.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you could pick it apart, there are so many verses, I have no doubt you could find some to counter what I say. I have read the Bible through twice and the teachings of Jesus many times. I believe I know what He was talking about, especially since in my experience the same lessons were taught. I know that Christians always get around to saying my experience was not with God, that I was fooled, etc., even saying the devil did it. But when religious people have a NDE they generally lose their religion, and when atheists or agnostics have the experience they become believers. However, they all still believe in a God that loves them and others very much. It all goes back to choosing what you wish to believe, positive or negative. I chose positive and I am very happy, and peaceful for doing so, I have no fear of death or hell or other ideas thought up by men.

I wish the same for you and everyone. Merry Christmas.

73

[QUOTE=lekatt]
But when religious people have a NDE they generally lose their religion,
[/QUOTE]

I don’t see where this is a issue, religion is of man, I would like to know about people of faith, who have experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit, who’s church is not a pointed building that they visit 1/week, but a gathering of 2 or more in the name of Jesus, anytime anyplace.

Inculding Jesus? You sure use the scriptures when they suit you, but you ignore the very parts that can set you free - the very weapon you need! You have also gave instruction on this board that can very well lead to demonic possession - something about a tree and a comedian and a month’s time, so you may be leading others into bondage.

74

[QUOTE=the raindog]
Some may have this opinion, however it is not supported in the bible.

One never abidicates their “reponsibilities to the world.” On the contrary.

One lives their life consistent with god’s purpose and requirements, all of which require a great deal of personal responsibility.

Rather, one uses his free will to do the will of another. (God) IOW, one chooses a life course that is consistent with God’s wishes, instead of selfish desires.
[/QUOTE]

No offense, but the bible isn’t the greatest source of goodness and light its’ devotees make it out to be. There are plenty of things that ARE referenced in the bible that make it basically moot as a reference point of decent behavior, IMO of course.

Now, what I’d like to know is why we need ‘god’ to do good works? Also, I’d like to know how anyone thinks that the wishes of the single, omnipotent being that suppposedly created the entire galaxy can be summarily interpreted, jotted down and stuffed into a book you can buy in a wallie-mart.

While we’re at it, I’d also like to know if a person today said god told him to add to the bible (as many of the original contributors supposedly did) how many Christians would take him or her seriously?

75

[QUOTE=kanicbird]

While God can promise blessings, He also can and does cause hardships at times.
[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Famine, disease, poverty, overpopulation, environmental destruction…all of these and more are on god?

76

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I don’t see where this is a issue, religion is of man, I would like to know about people of faith, who have experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit, who’s church is not a pointed building that they visit 1/week, but a gathering of 2 or more in the name of Jesus, anytime anyplace.

Inculding Jesus? You sure use the scriptures when they suit you, but you ignore the very parts that can set you free - the very weapon you need! You have also gave instruction on this board that can very well lead to demonic possession - something about a tree and a comedian and a month’s time, so you may be leading others into bondage.
[/QUOTE]

I see you are moving up your big negative ideas now. I am free, more free than ever in my life. I need no weapons, I am not fighting a war. There is no such thing as demonic possession. It is impossible for anything to posses anyone without their permission and then only the body can be used, never the real you (spirit). Yes, I remember now, talking to trees. Trees have a spirit also. I will always refuse to teach fear, I will always teach Love, and God is love. On your other post, God does not harm anyone for any reason. It is not nice to blame God for the mistakes of mankind.

77

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I see you are moving up your big negative ideas now.
[/QUOTE]

No I moved up to the idea that you may be under deception of the enemy several posts ago, I’m saying that the parts that you were told to ignore are the very parts you need to be set really free. Yes the enemy can make it seem like you have been set free, it is a lie, once set free by Jesus you can see the darkness around you in the past when you used to think you were free.

You just avoided my question about real spirit filled people with NDE’s as opposed to weekly church goers.

Prisoners need no weapons if they are content with their captivity.

Technically you are correct, but it is a half truth, demonic possession is a mistranslation of ‘to have a demon’ or demonized - I use it because people understand it better. A demon can’t own anyone.

This is also true, a person must give a demon permission for a demon to enter their flesh (not their spirit), though it is usually through deception that one agrees to this.

Also true, demon is spirit, and can’t enter a person’s spirit, but can and does enter the flesh.

God corrects those He loves, those corrections are sometimes unpleasant but needed for our eternal good. If you consider that harm or not is a matter of opinion.

I agree, and I don’t, I blame Satan.

[QUOTE=buttonjockey308]

Seriously? Famine, disease, poverty, overpopulation, environmental destruction…all of these and more are on god?
[/QUOTE]

God allows us and the devil to operate within certain limits, the devil does cause much hardship, which is a misuse of a God given power.

78

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
No I moved up to the idea that you may be under deception of the enemy several posts ago, I’m saying that the parts that you were told to ignore are the very parts you need to be set really free. Yes the enemy can make it seem like you have been set free, it is a lie, once set free by Jesus you can see the darkness around you in the past when you used to think you were free.

You just avoided my question about real spirit filled people with NDE’s as opposed to weekly church goers.
Prisoners need no weapons if they are content with their captivity.

Technically you are correct, but it is a half truth, demonic possession is a mistranslation of ‘to have a demon’ or demonized - I use it because people understand it better. A demon can’t own anyone.

This is also true, a person must give a demon permission for a demon to enter their flesh (not their spirit), though it is usually through deception that one agrees to this.

Also true, demon is spirit, and can’t enter a person’s spirit, but can and does enter the flesh.

God corrects those He loves, those corrections are sometimes unpleasant but needed for our eternal good. If you consider that harm or not is a matter of opinion.

I agree, and I don’t, I blame Satan.
God allows us and the devil to operate within certain limits, the devil does cause much hardship, which is a misuse of a God given power.
[/QUOTE]

I believe we could discuss this for years and never come to any agreement.

God’s creations are as He is. God did not create a Satan. We live in a physical world of duality created for the purpose of learning about ourselves. The best way to learn is through love, preaching love, embracing love, and showing love to ourselves and all others. Those that decide to do this have no trouble understanding the world. I will always do that as best as I can because I know it is real.

Now I realize that more people will listen to you if you preach fear. The reason is people are fearful already and fear teaching catches their attention. If you teach love hardly anyone will listen, love can’t hurt them so why should they listen. But I shall continue to teach only love.

A few experiences combined.

79

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I believe we could discuss this for years and never come to any agreement.
[/QUOTE]

Hopefully it won’t take that long, but I do understand your point. But I need to comment on another direct or indirect distortion you have been stating:

God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.. I am not proposing preaching fear, but the love and strength that comes from the God of the living. Yes the enemy is real, but we are not to fear them, we are to stand in God’s strength, we have been given all authority over the enemy in Jesus’ name. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.

80

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Hopefully it won’t take that long, but I do understand your point. But I need to comment on another direct or indirect distortion you have been stating:

God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.. I am not proposing preaching fear, but the love and strength that comes from the God of the living. Yes the enemy is real, but we are not to fear them, we are to stand in God’s strength, we have been given all authority over the enemy in Jesus’ name. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.
[/QUOTE]

The only enemy we have is ourselves, our bad choices, our lack of knowledge and spiritual immaturity which is why we are here to learn. Others mirror our failures and faults, our weaknesses and fears. What we accuse others of we do. What we hold in our hearts we show to others. If we fear, we show fear, if we love, we show love.

If we attack another we attack the Kingdom of God, which is within us all. What or who could prevail against the Kingdom of God – nothing and no one, of course.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

The path to God is the path of truth and love, compassion and caring. If you want to connect with God that is how to do it. Negativity will get you no where, and accomplish nothing. If all who profess Christianity would actually follow the teachings of Jesus what a wonderful world this would be. But they fear God instead of love Him. That just doesn’t work.