This seems to do the best job at conveying the xian notion of what it means to ‘give your life to god’; specifically, that you’ll continuously check-in with him on each of your free will forks in the road and do what you understand god wants you to do rather than what you want to do.
Of course, in my view, that’s known as a ‘conscience’ and hardly needs fancy pants in the sky. :rolleyes: But that’s another thread.
Bottom line: nobody’s provided a coherent answer if you push the question back far enough to original intentions before the narrative of the bible begins.
I agree… I think we’re just differing in terms of definitions and terminology, like you say. I don’t think there can be “true” selflessness, in the sense that people will always gain a benefit from choosing sacrifice, even if all that benefit is is that they wanted to do it. Certainly people can be more selfish than others, because there’s pretty much no end to the amount of benefit some people are willing to take for little sacrifice. I just think, in the end, it’s a scale that goes from greedy horrible bastard on one end to noble, giving person - but a person who still gets enjoyment from doing as they do - on the other. And a religious person or an atheist could be anywhere on that line.
My point originally was just to try and understand or disagree with the idea that a person who chooses to serve a god “gives up” their own choices and allows that god to take control of them (as they understand them). Certainly someone can follow a god, and that may easily be a good thing, but at no point do they or even can they do something they don’t want to. They don’t subordinate self will, I guess is my point, or at least they don’t subordinate it any more than anyone else does. Seeking to become one with others is after all at it’s very beginning a personal decision.
I’m not sure everyone would agree with having Mother Teresa in there, but I get your point. I do think selflessness in grades can exist, but only in terms of good deeds and giving to others and the like, not through giving up your own will.
I don’t know that i’d go that far. Certainly a person who follows God giving to charity is still acting as per their own will, but following a religion may alter that will in the first place. Religious people in general do seem to be more charitable (I don’t have stats at hand, though). I’m not entirely sure religion is a good thing, but I think if it went away magically tomorrow a lot of charitable endeavours would fold. I don’t know that that would count as necessary… but I guess it depends on your definition.
Agreed. That’s why I personally get very uncomfortable and nervous when people use the language I mentioned above. They get a strong feeling or an intuition and they are to eager call it being led to do God’s will. Then if it doesn’t work out well it’s probably because the others were resisting God rather than them possibly being mistaken. Even if someone is trying to follow their perception of god’s will I’d rather they recognize the choice and the responsibility is fully theirs.
I think the whole question of whether religion is necessary or more good than bad is a moot point. We can’t answer those questions with any reasonable degree of certainty so it becomes personal preference and speculation. Good for internet message boards I guess.
Some comments about your response. One thing you tend to realize is when such a fork in the road appears, a major intersection where you have to chose your paths from the choices offered by God, Flesh, and Satan.
Following God is not following conscience however, conscience is best viewed as how to navigate between major forks in the road - or how well you stay inside your lane of travel. Basically the steering wheel with your limited view as the driver, while God is the GPS (tied into traffic control and the weather station).
Regardless of what you believe, as a practical matter how exactly does one give God control over their life? IDoes God help me choose a career path? How does God assist me in paying my rent? Do I sit in my appartment and wait for whatever opportunities God chooses to send my way?
So. . . Free Will is a Hobson’s Choice Theology? “Feel free to do whatever you want, as long as it’s what I want”? A Free Will with one correct answer isn’t a Free Will at all, is it? More like an invitation to error? Why did God bother? Why make us fallible and toss us in a rat-maze trap set up to fail? The ‘he’s a good dad and wants us to grow up for ourselves’ metaphor is crap because dads are generally not infallible, omnipotent demiurges, but rather humans who make other humans and don’t have a lot of choice in the design specifications.
(Actually, I see Kalhoun has preceded me in wondering what sort of sadistic point there is to this.)
I certainly mean no personal offense to you dangermom, but I find that statement so fundamentally disturbing, I’m not sure even where to begin. It shows such a completely dim and dismal view of humanity on the whole that it boggles my mind. I will willingly admit that we have baser desires, but to assume that we are that totally self-serving that without some higher power coercing us in to being something other that complete scumbags speaks of a horrid, horrid species.
If THAT is the kind of thought that a Christian god wants us to have over ourselves, it is no wonder to me that people stray from the “light.” Frankly, that is far more dark than I can manage on my own.
Reading this thread makes me very, very happy that I don’t think so poorly of myself or of others.
Diana Wynne Jones was a big favorite of my kids, so I may have to look for this for the youngest guy. So thanks for that.
Other than that, I think grammar homework is the worst possible example of homework that has to be done in order to advance. Better to read the mysteries or Diana Wynne Jones or–well, almost anything–to see how grammar rules are applied, or not, in the real world.
Not exactly. We’re back to where believing there is a purpose and exploring the that possibility, or believing it’s all random and there is no purpose, are both valid beliefs for an individual to hold. Being too sure of either position is inappropriate.
These are two very different issues. No “purpose” does not necessitate “random”. Sometimes systems have internal structure. Existence of laws of physics, for example, does not necessitate a teleological trajectory. Because the burned toast reminds us of a rainbow doesn’t mean someone made it that way, but it also isn’t ‘random’. Unpurposive, perhaps. But it’s not all or nothing.
We are not fundamentally flawed, we are basically good people who have purpose and meaning to our lives through our relationship with a God that loves us all and wants us to be happy and enjoy our life. Some see only darkness and negativity, others see the light and positiveness, it is a simple choice. Chose the light and love or chose the darkness and fear. It is your choice.
I think we are both. That every person is flawed is a matter of fact. Any self-reflective person will admit their imperfections & character weaknesses. It is the basic goodness of people that is a matter of faith.
