Glenn Miller

[warinner]

Regarding John Corrado’s staff report on the disappearance of Glenn Miller, you can view the original missing aircraft report for Miller, John Morgan and Norman Baessell here (see page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4, page 5 and page 6) courtesy of the US Gummamint. I suppose that proponents of the Miller conspiracy theory could argue IT’S ALL PART OF THE COVERUP!!!??! but if so they were remarkably thorough.

As for the accidental bombing theory, I have some nagging doubts about it.

(1) The southern jettison area was more or less due south of London and the airfield where Miller took off from. A direct course from London to Paris would have followed an easterly heading. What was the plane doing so far south? Granted, weather conditions were very poor and navigational errors can’t be ruled out, but the weather was clear enough for Shaw to identify the plane as a C-64 and to watch it crash in the sea.

(2) Despite Shaw’s account, there is no contemporary report of the incident. Shaw explained since the Siegen raid was cancelled, no debriefing of crews took place and he made no effort to make a downed plane report. It is possible that Shaw and the other crew members who witnessed the crash wouldn’t go out of their way to report it but it does seem to border on the callous. Also, if Shaw witnessed it, it should have been witnessed by other planes that may have reported it.

Yet another theory is offered here. Fred Atkinson was a member of Air Transport Squadron based at Le Bourget Airfield outside of Paris. He claims that the flight crew members, Morgan and Baessell, were members of the unit:

Several days after our plane left London, we were notified that an aircraft that might be ours had crashed on the coast of France and that the occupants were dead. We dispatched a plane to that location and the aircraft and the bodies of our pilots were identified. Our crew also said that the other body definitely was that of Glenn Miller. They said there were identification papers and dogtags that were on his body. Our second crew that was in London at the time verified they had witnessed Glenn Miller and our two pilots board the aircraft and depart.

I recall the papers being processed to salvage our aircraft and report the death of our pilots on the squadron morning report. This report was turned in on a daily basis and notes the changes in status of all personnel as they occur. We had not experienced any deaths in our squadron until this time and this was a “double whammy” to us because of the loss of our pilots and the loss to the U. S. Armed Forces of probably the greatest moral booster (along with Bob Hope) that we all loved.

I scoured the missing aircraft report cited above but it does not mention any unit for Miller, Morgan or Baessell.

Andrew Warinner

[John_Corrado]

On the alternate theory- this was one that I sent to my friend John Kilgallon (the WW2 enthusiast, small plane pilot, and member of the US Army and the Civilian Air Patrol). His response:

Hmmm…might be true, might not:

1. This guy doesn’t claim to be an eyewitness. He’s a personnel guy who talked to the pilots. So he may have not
   heard things correctly.

2. It would have to be a heck of a cover up, especially if dog tags were recovered (along with the plane, with enough ID on it for the finders to locate the owning unit). I’d expect there to be traces of the plane’s disposition in somebodies supply/maintenance files. And if the only one doing the covering (inferred) is the BG who doesn’t want to be charged with manslaughter, that’s a lot of covering up to do.

3. The biggie - even if they had covered up Glen Miller’s
   death, it doesn’t sound like they covered up the other
   guys. The surviving pilots could have brought charges based on their deaths. So the motive doesn’t hold up. Of
   course, as the writer alludes, it’s only a rumored motive.

The main problem I have with Mr. Atkinson’s story is that he specifically states that people saw the plane, the bodies, and that paperwork had been filed upon the deaths… but his account made fifty years later is the only account made thereof. If people were chomping at the bit to bring charges against this unnamed-Brigadier General, you’d think they’d have talked about it at the time.

In addition, one must be missing seven years in order to be legally declared dead, so action against this General could have started in 1951. But nothing was done.
On your other points:
(1)- A good point; I’m not sure I can say anything to quiet that doubt.

(2)- On the other hand, Shaw’s report was turned in to his superiors before anyone really felt that Miller was ‘missing’; it’s possible that he saw a trick of the light that caused him to identify something as the specific type of plane Miller was riding in, but that’s quite a coincidence.

As for not filing a report on the matter- I’m pretty sure I can understand that. You’ve just been riding eight hours in your bomber through nasty weather, had to turn back without actually doing anything, you’re cold and wet- do you really want to spend the next two hours filling out paperwork and being questioned by superiors because of an incident that you don’t actually have to report?

[warinner]

John Corrado wrote:

The main problem I have with Mr. Atkinson’s story

Just to clarify, I don’t regard Mr. Atkinson’s story as particularly compelling, I was just entering it into the Glenn Miller conspiracy theory sweepstakes.

I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that Atkinson was a clerk in the unit that flew Miller and that he did see some of the papers related to the disappearance. However, the recovery of the bodies and the side plot around the unnamed general aren’t credible.

On the other hand, Shaw’s report was turned in to his superiors before anyone really felt that Miller was ‘missing’

Are you sure that Shaw or anyone else made a contemporary report of the downed plane? From what I’ve read of Shaw’s account, no report was made at the time.

Here’s my understanding of Shaw’s claims:

• The accidental bombing theory was initially rejected when proposed by Shaw because no record could be found of an RAF mission flown on 12/15/44.

• Shaw produces logbook that notes the cancelled raid on Siegen. However, the entire entry in Shaw’s logbook reads, “Ops. Siegen Canceled. Jettison Southern Area”. No downed plane is mentioned. Other records are found that corroborate the aborted raid.

• Shaw makes the connection between his memory of the downed plane and the aborted raid on Siegen public only in 1984.

So it seems that the entire connection between the downed plane and the aborted raid on Siegen resides in Fred Shaw’s memory. And Shaw himself didn’t make the connection until 1984 after seeing ‘The Glenn Miller Story.’

it’s possible that he saw a trick of the light that caused him to identify something as the specific type of plane Miller was riding in, but that’s quite a coincidence.

It’s not uncommon. I’ve seen plenty of examples when chasing down urban legends. Here’s a good explanation of why I consider memory to be less than infallible.

You’ve just been riding eight hours in your bomber through nasty weather

That brings up another doubt I have about the accidental bombing theory. According to this account:

Records found at the Ministry of Defense by E. A. Munday, of the Air Historical Branch, confirmed that a squadron of Lancasters had, in fact, taken off at noon on Dec. 15, 1944, and had flown on a course over northern France, near the Belgian border, on a mission to attack the railway yards at Stegen, Germany.

Shaw’s squadron flew from Methold in western England and the raid was aborted when the bombers were near Brussels.

Siegen was a popular target for both the RAF and Bomber Command and several raids by each of them were flown. The flying time to Siegen was 6 hours 40 minutes according to this medal citation. That’s a relatively short mission, and one that could have been further shortened by an early abort as the raid was.

Miller’s plane departed Twinwood Farms airfield at 1:55 pm.

The question is this: would Miller’s plane have time to read a position 50 miles south of Beachy Head from an airfield northwest of London at the same time as the returning RAF raid? The C-64 Norsemen has a cruising speed of 148 mph. The Lancasters would have been cruising at a much higher speed, probably well over 200 mph. Would the almost two hour difference in departure times rule out a meeting south of England? I dunno, much of it depends on the flightpath taken by the raid - which theoretically could be reconstructed from RAF SOP or extant records - and the flightpath of Miller’s plane - which can’t be reconstructed.

Maybe this just lengthens the odds of Miller being in the wrong place at the wrong time but I still consider the accidental bombing of Miller’s plane to be less than proven.

Andrew Warinner

[bigginhill]

@warinner

Regarding John Corrado’s staff report on the disappearance of Glenn Miller, you can view the original missing aircraft report for Miller, John Morgan and Norman Baessell here (see page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4, page 5 and page 6) courtesy of the US Gummamint. I suppose that proponents of the Miller conspiracy theory could argue IT’S ALL PART OF THE COVERUP!!!??! but if so they were remarkably thorough.

As for the accidental bombing theory, I have some nagging doubts about it.

(1) The southern jettison area was more or less due south of London and the airfield where Miller took off from. A direct course from London to Paris would have followed an easterly heading. What was the plane doing so far south? Granted, weather conditions were very poor and navigational errors can’t be ruled out, but the weather was clear enough for Shaw to identify the plane as a C-64 and to watch it crash in the sea.

(2) Despite Shaw’s account, there is no contemporary report of the incident. Shaw explained since the Siegen raid was cancelled, no debriefing of crews took place and he made no effort to make a downed plane report. It is possible that Shaw and the other crew members who witnessed the crash wouldn’t go out of their way to report it but it does seem to border on the callous. Also, if Shaw witnessed it, it should have been witnessed by other planes that may have reported it.

Yet another theory is offered here. Fred Atkinson was a member of Air Transport Squadron based at Le Bourget Airfield outside of Paris. He claims that the flight crew members, Morgan and Baessell, were members of the unit:

I scoured the missing aircraft report cited above but it does not mention any unit for Miller, Morgan or Baessell.

Andrew Warinner

Glen Miller was shot in a plane whilst on the ground at Northolt Airport in North London by Lt Col Baessell. This was on the orders of Eisenhower or at least with his knowledge. The pilot was then forced at gunpoint to flt to France. The rest is known and is contained in a new book on this subject. However, even after more than 60 years the American government is preventing publication. Why?

[D_Odds]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Not everyone knows the rest or the reasons. Enlighten us. I could use a good laugh.

[hajario]

Why would Ike want Glenn Miller dead?

[Edward_The_Head]

@hajario

Why would Ike want Glenn Miller dead?

Don’t you know what those trombone players get up to? Worst of the lot I tell ya, and I should know I am one.

[RiverRunner]

@hajario

Why would Ike want Glenn Miller dead?

Because he was a spy! He could transmit to the Axis many classified secrets via his playing . . . at least, the secrets you could spell out using only the letters A-G.

Examples:
ACE DEAD. DDE AGED. EGAD, A-sharp DAG BAD.
Who know where it would have ended without DDE’s timely intervention?

RR

[Little_Nemo]

Why would Ike want Glenn Miller dead?

Ike was just a patsy. The real mastermind of the operation was Mamie.

[dropzone]

@D_Odds

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Not everyone knows the rest or the reasons. Enlighten us. I could use a good laugh.

I believe He want you to buy his book. And find him a publisher who hasn’t been bought off by The Man. Most people these days give up and create a website, making money off paid porn and gambling links, but I guess he’s old fashioned.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

Just after unloading the bombs, the bombardier called out that there was a plane below them. Shaw looked out the window and saw a Norseman flying south at 1500 feet. Bombs were going off all around it.

I don’t understand this part of Shaw’s story. How did jettisoned bombs ‘go off’ in mid-air, at the height of Millers lane?

Didn’t most of those bombs at that time use contact triggers, so they only went off when they hit a building or something on the ground? (Presumably that’s why ship traffic was prohbited in the area: the chance of a bomb accidentally hitting a ship and going off.)

And even if they had some early type of a proximity trigger, they would have been set to go off close to the ground, not at 1500 feet.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Because I don’t see any reason for these bombs to be going off in mid-air.

[glee]

@bigginhill

Glen Miller was shot in a plane whilst on the ground at Northolt Airport in North London by Lt Col Baessell. This was on the orders of Eisenhower or at least with his knowledge. The pilot was then forced at gunpoint to flt to France. The rest is known and is contained in a new book on this subject. However, even after more than 60 years the American government is preventing publication. Why?

Same reason the US Government is covering up the teleportation of an entire battleship:

‘The Eldridge then disappeared from Norfolk as mysteriously as it had arrived, and reappeared back in Philadelphia Naval Yard’

Sorry - The Software Artist Limited

You see the battleship incident is known as the Philadelphia Experiment, and Glenn Miller had the famous song ‘Philadelphia 6-5000’.

It’s all clear now. :smack:

[flodnak]

@glee

Glenn Miller had the famous song ‘Philadelphia 6-5000’.

Are we being wooshed?

(brring, brring) PENNSYLVANIA SIX FIVE OH-OH-OH!

[glee]

@flodnak

Are we being wooshed?

(brring, brring) PENNSYLVANIA SIX FIVE OH-OH-OH!

I assumed that bigginhill wouldn’t know the difference between fact and fantasy.

Were you In The Mood for this?

[Johnny_L.A]

@t-bonham@scc.net

I don’t understand this part of Shaw’s story. How did jettisoned bombs ‘go off’ in mid-air, at the height of Millers lane?

I assumed that the bombs were hitting the ocean ‘all around’ Miller’s aircraft. I don’t know how high the blast would reach. Would 1,500 feet be adequate to escape the rising water? I can imagine thought that there would be significant concussions that would buffet the Norseman, and that the pilot might lose control.

[Xema]

@Johnny L.A.

… there would be significant concussions that would buffet the Norseman, and that the pilot might lose control.

It’s also possible that one of the bombs hit the Norseman.

[Johnny_L.A]

Wouldn’t be the only time an aircraft in flight was hit by a bomb.

http://www.micom.net/oops/B-17%20bomb%20run.jpg

(I don’t know if the site allows hotlinking, so you may have to cut and paste the URL.)

[David_Simmons]

@Johnny L.A.

I assumed that the bombs were hitting the ocean ‘all around’ Miller’s aircraft. I don’t know how high the blast would reach. Would 1,500 feet be adequate to escape the rising water? I can imagine thought that there would be significant concussions that would buffet the Norseman, and that the pilot might lose control.

There is a safety wire attached to the shackle that prevents the little fuze arming propellor from turning. when the bomb is dropped normally the wire stays with the shackle which pulls it free of the arming propellor. The propellor spins as the bomb drops and eventually falls off. The fuze is now armed and can ignite the main charge.

When bombs are salvoed (jettisoned) shackle and all is dropped. The safety wire stays engaged and the fuze never arms. The bomb is rendered inert and doesn’t explode. Salvoed bombs rarely exploded upon hitting the earth. They were intentionally made to be hard to activate. Gives an adequate safety margin in shipping and handling them don’t y’know.

[Johnny_L.A]

@David Simmons

There is a safety wire attached to the shackle that prevents the little fuze arming propellor from turning.

I’d forgotten about that.