Global Warming and the Necessity for Nuclear Power

They have not said that specifically. They have said that their target is 30% by 2030, but they have been vague about where the remaining 37% is supposed to come from. ‘Industry sources’ suspect that natural gas turbines will be part of the mix, but I haven’t seen anything official from the government in that respect. There’s simply a gap that they haven’t got a solid plan for. Of course, by necessity I think it will have to be natural gas, but then I think that about 90% of that 67% will have to be natural gas, because there’s no way in hell this province is going to provide 30% of our power needs from renewables by 2030. That number is a green fantasy.

And since I was called on the carpet for this, I have to point out that one of your sources says that the plan will replace 30% of our electricity, while the Canadian Press cite says it will be 30% of all power.

Let’s take that last cite, though (which I hadn’t seen before). It says that Alberta uses about 16,300 MW of energy, of which coal makes up 39%, or 6,357 MW. The government’s target is for 5,000 MW of renewables by 2030. That is in fact 30% of our power. I guess they could be talking about only electricity - I don’t have time to check right now, and bad writing by journalists isn’t surprising.

In any event, let’s just take their goal of 5,000 MW. The first thing to note is that renewables are not like coal or nuclear - a 5,000 MW coal fired plant running at a 90% duty cycle produces a hell of a lot more power in a year than an equivalent 5,000MWp solar installation.

So, to avoid all this wrangling over terms and power vs electricity and all that, let’s just go directly to the source: Alberta Energy Electricity Statistics

Now, from that cite we can see that coal generated 41,378 GWh of electricity in 2015. For simplicity, let’s ignore wind and hydro for a moment, and look at what it would take to replace that energy with solar. Let’s say the government builds a 5,000 MW solar plant. Here in Edmonton we get about 2345 hours of sunshine per per year. If we could convert all that sunlight to energy at peak rates that gets us about 11.725 GWh. That would replace about 28% of our coal-sourced electricity. But that doesn’t account for the fact that our energy needs are highest in winter when solar production is lowest. NAIT has also found that on an annual basis snow cover reduces efficiency by about 5.78%. So now we’re down to 11.04 GWh, or 26.7% of coal-sources electricity.

It also doesn’t account for other losses in the system such as battery storage losses, transmission losses if the solar plants are located far from the city, and on and on.

It also doesn’t account for the fact that your renewables can go almost completely offline for days or even weeks on end. Have a look at that data I provided for November. December will be even worse because the shortest day of the year and on average in December we only get an average of 2.34 hours of sunshine per day! (we get 7.12 hours of total daylight on the shortest day, vs 16.47 on the longest day).

So congratulations - the government’s plan - if they could meet it - will replace maybe 27% of our coal-fired electricity with intermittent, unreliable power that will require us to buy power from other provinces on cloudy days - if we can get it. Or, we have to maintain a complete fossil-powered grid in reserve that can be fired up when bad weather hits.

And because Alberta only gets about half the solar insolation that California gets, our plant would have to be sized to the equivalent of a 10MW plant in California. In other words, we are starting at DOUBLE the cost for an equivalent system elsewhere. And that doesn’t account for the increased construction and maintenance costs of our harsh climate, the costs for snow removal, etc.

So little Alberta is going to build the equivalent of a 10MW solar plant by 2030. How feasible is that? Well, for starters, that’s about 40% of the entire installed solar base in the United States. And if we’re really lucky, it will replace 27% of our coal-sourced electricity, but in the real world probably more like half that, and in the winter months more like a quarter of that.

And this is optimistic. Let’s take a look at the results in Ontario:

From that site you can see the difference between renewable power sources and traditional sources.

For example, Nuclear represents 36% of installed capacity, but 60% of all power output. Why? because it can do it 24 hours per day, every day of the year. Wind, on the other hand, represents 11% of installed capacity but only provided 6% of their power. Solar represents 1% of installed capacity, but its actual output is just shown as “<1%”. The numbers I’ve seen are around .4%.

So we’re starting with double the costs due to poor solar insolation, and then we can hope to get maybe half of the power that an equivalent nuclear or coal plant of the same capacity could provide. If we’re lucky. And we’ll get most of that power in the summer when we don’t need it, and very little in the winter when we do. And there will be long periods where 27% of our power is completely offline for days and will have to be replaced.

The end result is going to be almost no impact on global warming, in exchange for an unstable grid, huge tax and electricity price increases, and a lot of imported power.

Nuclear reactors need exotic metals too:

I should think solar panels would be eminently more recyclable than nuclear containment vessels we don’t even have a place to dispose of yet.

Of course you realize how inefficient that is? The company is claiming only 20% losses, but that drives your energy cost up by 20%, plus the cost of building and maintaining the facility. And 20% seems optimistic for that kind of system.

[/snip]
No need to think it, it was mentioned that it was Natural gas.

And based on what you doubling down even after it is clear that you did omit the Natural Gas part you are still reaching for the FUD and clearly a lot of your calculations still rely on sources that need to be cited or we have to assume that as usual you are still depending on a lot of contrarian sources that indeed failed spectacularly to tell you about the natural gas plan.

It has to be pointed out that you have to scramble after finding out that the claims that Alberta was going to go to close to get their energy from using only renewals was not correct, it was actually to 30% by 2030.

Perhaps you are also still thinking that I’m only proposing that just solar is the solution, not the case.

Gravity storage isn’t very complicated, but it is big. Really, really big. Consider first that we already use gravity storage, in hydro plants. If you want a gravity storage system with enough capacity to replace a dam, it needs to be the size of a dam. Except you need a lot more than that, since the fossil fuel plants we’re looking to replace amount to a lot more than all of our hydro plants combined.

And Stranger, I imagine a 100% solution to the nuclear waste problem as consisting of reprocessing as much as possible, vitrifying whatever we can’t reprocess, and then putting the glass in a hole in the ground in the middle of the desert. Glass won’t seep into aquifers, and after reprocessing, there won’t even be very much of that.

Oh, and the main reason why China is the leader in rare earth production is that everyone else finds it cheaper to buy from China than to mine their own. Despite the name, they’re not actually all that rare, and rare earths are found all over the globe. If demand exceeded what China could produce, or they started charging too much for it or whatever, other countries could step up.

EDIT: I knew there was something I was forgetting to mention. It’s no surprise that solar is a poor choice for Alberta, which is after all really far north. But solar isn’t the only renewable technology. How does wind look up there?

Every form of energy production and storage is going to result in a loss of power. That’s just as true of fossil fuels as it is renewables. Secondly, in Japan they are already doing a version of this kind of storage to capture excess capacity generated at night for sale during the date when the rates are higher. The cost for building and maintaining would also apply to a nuclear plant so that is not a difference. Ultimately, this should reduce electricity prices because it would allow for the sale of electricity not used when it was produced.

The “Oh noes! What are we going to do with the waste?!?” argument irritates me. The plans we had for Yucca Mountain (before Obama killed it) was a way better solution than what we’re currently doing with hydrocarbon waste: pumping it into the air. The WHO estimates that air polution kills 7 million people a year. It’s astounding that we’re dickering around about waste that might (might) be a problem in 1000 years while we’re killing millions every year.

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Nuclear reactors need exotic metals too:
[/QUOTE]

Sure, but you have to understand the scales here. Seriously…we are talking about billions and billions of panels verse a few large containment vessels. Billions verse a couple hundred.

The main issue with rare earths is access…the US doesn’t have any open mines for the types used in solar panels (or hybrid or AE batteries), IIRC, so we have to import those. China has put limits on those, as mentioned by CarnalK a couple posts up, so there is going to be some bottle neck issues.

None of this gets into post-production deployment, maintenance or other in production or final disposition issues (billions of panels with rare earth metals in them and other toxic stuff).

Well, again, it’s a matter of scale. I’m less sure they are all that recyclable…do you have data on that? Even if they are, we are, again, talking billions of the things verse a couple hundred nuke plants in the US…and of the high level radioactive material (assuming we aren’t even going to discuss reprocessing) we aren’t really talking about a huge amount of material to dispose of. not a desks worth (IIRC as Regan said :p), but still not the mountains of material that would be in several billion solar panels.

I want to reiterate here that I’m not against solar. I’m actually pretty pro-solar…I have it on my house and like it. It’s a good niche energy source and I think will be a vital part of our energy mix, along with wind, hydro, geothermal and even fossil fuels. I just want nuclear to ALSO be a part of the mix, and I think if the requirement is to really cut CO2 emissions in the short to medium term that nuclear needs to be increasing, not slowly dying out.

Not exactly. A dam contains an entire lake, a gravity storage system only needs to contain the volume of liquid displaced. In my mind I wouldn’t expect a systems like this built to be the size of the Hoover Dam, but many smaller ones to capture a portion of whatever the associate solar farm produced in excess. Plus these guys would be completely modular, add new cylinders as needed.

Well, if you want people to take your figures seriously, you should tell us where you found them. It’s not really that hard to post links.

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
It might be a good idea to refrain from using phrases like "The carbon-blasting U.S.’ in a message supposedly aiming to show the perfidious bias of my OP.

[/quote]

:dubious: Sorry if you found that statement unfairly biased against the US, but it is not really in dispute that the US has one of the highest per-capita CO2 emissions rates in the world. (Here’s a cite, though, in case you want to check it.) I don’t think there’s anything “perfidious” or objectionable in referring to the US (or its fellow high per-capita emitters such as Canada, Australia and Saudi Arabia) as “carbon-blasting” (or perhaps “carbon-extravagant”?) compared to more “carbon-frugal” nations such as Germany or Brazil.

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
So even though you actually agreed with the point in the OP

[/quote]

Well, no. I agree with the more general point that nuclear energy generation has significant benefits, especially in a rapidly warming world, that should be seriously considered when trying to work out a good national (or global) energy portfolio. But I think, as I said before, that your OP in particular did a pretty slipshod job of making and supporting that point.

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
just in case anyone should develop the idea that I might be a reasonable poster
[/QUOTE]

SO not going there. :wink:

Alberta has a few sites that are really good for wind production. The Crowsnest Pass (Pincher Creek) area is already home to a huge wind farm, and Alberta gets about 5% of its electricity from wind. The problem for future expansion is that the economics of wind power deteriorate rapidly as you use up the best sites. Southern Alberta still has some good sites left, and Calgary is being fed by the Pincher Creek station. But up north where the big growth in energy needs are, wind is more problematic.

And of course, wind suffers from the same variability problem as solar, so you still have a need for base-load power that can supply all our needs when nothing else is running.

Wind may be a better solution for Alberta than solar. But neither one is adequate to replace more than maybe 10-20% of our power needs, IMO.

What are the rare earths people are talking about with regard to PV?

Except that current methods for reprocessing spent material are expensive, energy intensive, and would require more facilities to be build and all of the associated logistics, whereas the technology for intrinsic burnup of nuclear fuel with minimial reprocessing is feasible and has been demonstrated in proof of concept. The nuclear industry as a whole doesn’t want to implement those technologies because maturing them and getting a new design licensed is expensive and time consuming (and because from the standpoint of making money it is far more profitable to build existing designs than develop new ones), but that is a short sighted view, especially in the scenerio of a shift to majority power production being nuclear fission for the foreseeable future. A sustainable energy policy to combat the long term effects of climate change and reduction of atmospheric carbon emissions has to actually plan for the long term, and by that I mean plan out three or four decades. A reflexive, do whatever is easiest in the short term policy is not going to hold up even as a reasonable baseline to deviate from as circumstances dictate.

The reason China is the leader is because of cheap labor and a lack of concern about environmental contamination from separating rare earth elements. In doing so, however, they have essentially cornered the market on what has become a vital resource for electronics technology. (The rarity of these materials is their relative scarcity in comparison to other elements, but they are widely geographically available.) This is really more of a market dictate than a physical or even economic limitations. In other words, if the US or another nation wanted to develop the ability to produce rare earth metals, it is just a matter of cost and contamination control.

I’ve answered this question repeatedly; depositing nuclear waste in the Yucca Mountain repository is not a solution to any problem. It is expensive to operate and transport waste, does not have sufficient capacity to store even the current volume of waste material presently being stored on-site at operating reactors, is build adjacent to a seismic fault line, opposed by the majority of residents of the state, and most significantly, avoids the consideration that we may need that “waste” in the future as fuel once we decide that the currently favored once-through enriched uranium fuel cycle really isn’t the best use of fissile material. It is a solution only in the sense that it puts the end cycle waste products out of sight in a state with a relatively sparse population so we don’t have to argue with residents of states like California or or Illinois about what to do with the waste produced to generate their electricity. Inspectable, secure, above-ground dry cask storage is perfectly adequate until such time as we develop the political will and/or are driven by economic need to implement reprocessing and energetic burnup technologies that have already been demonstrated to a proof-of-concept level of maturity.

Conflating the risks of using the Yucca Mountain Repository versus the continued use of fossil fuels is disingenuous at best. There is general agreement (outside of the fossil fuel industry-funded think tanks) that there is a dire need to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide and other hydrocarbon pollutants that are released into the air. That doesn’t mean that the smartest thing to do is to adopt any other technology regardless of the risks, criticality of failure, or long term impacts. There are good ways to develop and integrate nuclear fission into the portfolio of power production methods in a safe, cost-effective, and sustainable manner. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars to throw up Generation III power plants willy nilly (and also having to build out the infrastructure to produce enriched fuels), especially when the proposed “solution” of what to do with the waste isn’t actually a solution for even the amount of waste currently sitting in on-site dry cask storage, much less the couple of orders of magnitude increase in future waste, is not smart or safe. What would be smart is investing in practicable near term technologies to mitigate production of atmospheric carbon, developing renewables where it makes logistical and cost effective sense to do so, and develop and execute a coherent long term plan to roll out nuclear fission technologies to supplant and replace hydrocarbon fuel power production with the goal of increasing security and reducing cost such that the technology can be implemented by developing nations with limited resources in a manner that is favorable to adopting coal or oil.

It seems as if most people have a preferred technology just as a toddler has a favorite toy, and like the toddler they cling to their notion in desperate angst regardless of the benefits of other technologies and in avowed ignorance of the risks or costs. Anyone who has actually taken the time to study energy policy and the array of power production methods will recognize that no existing or proposed technology is perfect, or even clearly better than all others for every application, nor would it be politically and economically feasible to roll out a favored technology and shut down all other production methods in one fell swoop.

Stranger

Transportation is ~30%, but light-duty is only two thirds of that. And light-duty is where we’ll see the most electrification. It’s going to be really hard to to make a usable electric class-8 truck in the near term.

It’s not a huge difference, but probably worth including in any analysis.

I can understand your frustration but I don’t think it’s a childish favourite that’s the problem, it’s a basic human instinct to want a solution. A portfolio that includes this and that is unsatisfying. That’s why you let a smart guy handle your mutual fund, so it’s not all full of the supposed next Google/Microsoft stock.

But the notion that “my solution is perfect and I will ignore any of the concerns or issues stated about it by dismissing them as obstrutive or uninformed” is essentially childish. The reality is that if there were any clearly good alternative with no actual downsides it be embraced by popular and technical sentiment with critics marginalized by their inability to point to factual evidence or prior experience justifying them. There is extensive evidence that nuclear fission power production can be difficult, expensive, and has the potential for catastrophic hazard if not expertly planned and managed, just as there is clear evidence that the current state of the art of renewables is not sufficient to replace fossil fuel use.

Let’s take a more practical approach to the problem, though. In order to construct the few hundred nuclear power plant that would be necessary at minimum to replace coal and natural gas fired plants would take experienced construction project managers, nuclear plant design engineers, technicians, millwrights, pipefitters, certified welders, et cetera for each effort. These are specific skill sets and experience that are already in short supply, and even if we engaged in an effort to develop those skills it would be the work of a decade or more just to build up the skills base, not to mention the amount of experience required to effectively manage a major project like constructing a power plant, and notwithstanding the logistics of getting the materials and support to engage in such a massive campaign. So even if it made technical sense to try to build a bunch of plants all at once to replace existing capabilities, it would not be practicable to do so, which mandates a phased construction approach. (Note that unlike conventional nuclear power plants that are not very scalable and are sited and built as unique projects, solar panels and wind turbines can be mass produced with a relatively small proportion of the cost, so even though they can’t be scaled up to the kind of output or footprint as a nuclear fission plant, they can be deployed faster to offset hydrocarbon energy production in favorable locations.)

There is also the issue that building a bunch of plants of one design or similar type locks you into that technology (and the limitations, both known and unforeseen) for the operational lifespan of the plant, versus phasing in newer and better technologies as they become technically mature. In such a case there is both a fiscal and institutional inertia against evolving and implementing better technologies because of the existing wide scale investment. And this isn’t a pie in the sky notion of better technology; there are proposed systems with proof of concept validation that provide substantial improvements over current Generation III reactor designs, which is unsurprising because those designs are essentially 20 to 30 years old.

Sustainable future energy supply is an enormous problem insofar as it underlies every aspect of civilization, and it needs to evolve as our needs evolve and access to resources changes. It makes absolutely no sense to insist that only one form of power production is the end-all be-all for every need and application for the foreseeable future, or invest all budget and effort into one type of design. The analogy to investing in a mutual fund (where losses can be offset, and profits, while not as great as the individual assets, are generally consistent) versus stocks (where a single bad market swing or negative perception can potentially wipe out an investment) is apt. Planning for future energy needs is too important to do it in a rash, unmeasured fashion or to bet the next thirty or more years on someone’s ideologically cherished solution.

Stranger

In case it wasn’t clear, my post was somewhat of a joke.

I know and understand very well that there’s going to be zero solar and wind generation for longer periods occasionally (I see it with my own eyes). I have no problem proposing a solution: flexible gas turbines and diesel generators. :eek: Fossil fuel! :eek: The idea is to have to run them less and less. Eventually, they will run so little that their entire fuel needs will be met with biogas and biodiesel. So we will still end up 100% renewable and sustainable.

Sam Stone, that was a good post. I live in a cold and dark country myself. Those issues you list are indeed some of the big ones I like to consider trying to figure how to solve them without fossil fuel and, eventually, without nuclear.

Unfortunately I have no time for much detailed thoughts. Every single issue you mention and many others (industry!) would each deserve a chapter in a book, at least. But some random thoughts:

  • For the really cold and dark latitudes, I see no reason why energy import couldn’t be a big part of the solution. Electricity import, in particular, is becoming more powerful and cost effective all the time.

  • Energy efficiency still has enormous low hanging fruit to contribute. My house was built in 2014 and used half of the heating input of one built in 2005 (just by mandatory minimum building standards). Still I easily cut my heating input in half again by installing a different type of heat pump (still not ground source one even). By 2020 the minimum standards will have cut heating input in half again. Heating of buildings is only 25% of total energy consumption here but I run into such a story in every individual issue I look into. (Transportation!)

  • 50% of energy use in my country is energy intensive “industry” (which splits into many kinds). I have no problem proposing that truly energy intensive activities perhaps just have no place in cold, dark, energy-poor locations.

  • There is not going to be one single answer for every different situation. Norway already produces 100% of their own electricity consumption (35% of their primary energy) by carbon free hydro. The path to 100% carbon free and eventually renewable electricity, and then total energy, is going to be different for every specific location and for every specific issue.

  • Putting together the numbers for energy efficiency, electrification, long distance electricity transmission, grid improvements, distributed generation and storage, and demand side response it is clear that with today’s technology there is already a path to 100% non-carbon renewable energy sufficiency with no fossil fuels (albeit including biomass, for now) and no nuclear. Insofar as I support nuclear it would be to get quicker decarbonization but it would be the expense of quicker renewable transition.

  • Nuclear, among its many disadvantages is a poor fit with the eventual vision of a distributed generation and storage grid with a large proportion of highly variable solar and wind. Increasing variable renewable generation (as an end in itself, as well as a quick, cheap and reliable way to decarbonize) requires the remaining generation to be flexible over seasonal, daily as well as minute-by-minute time scales. Nuclear is a really poor form of generation by this criterion.

I wish I had time to go over your numbers and arguments in detail. I agree exactly with your approach. Hard numbers and an engineering attitude. Exactly what’s missing in typical renewable propaganda.

Immediate, quick responses:

  • Of course solar is not a good fit to Alberta, by your own arguments. I would rather start by looking at wind. I’m sure the numbers are much better. Not to ignore solar altogether.

  • A critical element of the renewable transition is looking at the demand side. I scrolled to the end of one of your links and immediately noticed an unusually large proportion of residential usage. What are people using that electricity on?

Sorry for not having time to expand.