Global Warming and the Necessity for Nuclear Power

I am thinking case by case, step by step. Low hanging fruit. A solid vision and hard nosed engineering. Pace of progress will differ depending on the particular case and location.

I’m interested in predictions by others (e.g. here’s one about electric cars) but myself, I’m more interested in hearing about concrete steps.

Sorry for perhaps sounding evasive. It’s going to take a great many decades in any case regardless of how we speed it up. My focus is on what we can do, not primarily on how long it’s gonna take. There are issues with inventing technologies and solutions, with deploying them, with manufacturing capacity, with transitioning, and importantly, with getting people to want those solutions (thanks, Tesla!!). Lots to argue about!

Oh, only 100 ones? You mean 100 individual reactors? One hundred 1.5GW reactors produce only 60% more electricity on top of what we already have worldwide. I could live with that. You promise that, in 100 years when they wear out, you’re not going to advocate for another batch of one hundred new ones? :slight_smile: (See? Not all renewable proponents are the same!)

That was meant as a joke. Sorry for the confusion. In seriousness, I am arguing the exact opposite. Powering society with a large proportion of variable renewables requires precisely a through-and-through rethinking of the whole energy model. But quick progress is achievable with solar and wind, and it’s totally worth it.

Have to do one more…

1 GW of solar panels produces perhaps 1 TWh of electricity in a year (even if better located than mine on average), and don’t do that all the time. 1 GW of nuclear produces more than 8TWh of electricity in a year and does that continuously.

Agree, and to put numbers on what it is mentioned here one should consult a very recent study that does point at what can be done with current technology.

The opportunity to not use fossil fuels for energy is there. And while the study does point at how to do it with no nuclear power, I still do think that in some regions like in the west of the US and regions of Canada nuclear power is still and option; but by now it is clear to me that with no government support a nuclear part of the solution is not going to be viable.

Direct link to the study over here (PDF):

It has to be noticed that a lot of what has been said against using other energy sources is based on the mistaken impression or propaganda that claims that no one has looked at the challenges or that no one has noticed that using a single alt-source of power will not work. Indeed a lot of straw was mentioned that avoids what it was looked at already indeed.

These are all such interesting issues as well. I could write books about this.

  • Googling for Alberta blackouts, I found old news about Alberta summer blackouts due to heat. Summer peak! Those are ideally mitigated by rooftop solar, west-facing or tracking utility solar, moderate battery storage and/or electricity import from the west.

  • Winter peak and winter baseload! I tried comparing Alberta to Scandinavia, which also have those issues, but only realized that the situations are probably different. There is no single solution. E.g. in the case of Finland, for decades (before anybody even thought about renewables) they have had a demand response arrangement where those large industry customers will cut back during the winter peak. They are now working on expanding retail demand response. (This is a greatly simplified summary.)

  • Energy efficiency has to be a central component to addressing winter baseload in cold and dark climates. E.g. (ground source) heat pumps are often considered renewable energy, and are still a very untapped resource, as are energy efficient homes (at least in Finland).

  • Home heating in an emergency is a valid concern in many situations. So many solutions for that one. Many homes in Scandinavia still have some form of wood fire heating for example.

  • The only renewable generation I can think of that addresses winter peak is hydro. Does Alberta have hydro?

  • If not, then like I posted earlier, there’s no shame in deploying peak diesel generators. The very big winter peaks occur e.g. for a week at a time, every other year or so. You don’t build a nuclear plant for this. Not even a gas turbine. A diesel generator, eventually run on biodiesel (made from plants, in a Florida factory running on solar) seems ideal and can be made renewable. (In practice of course, nowadays such facilities are bid on a competitive market for reserve capacity. There’s another book…)

  • Blackouts… don’t even get me started…

An actual policy agenda by the Dutch Government to reduce total national CO2 emission by 95% from today’s levels in 2050!

I glanced through the actual document in Dutch to see what that is about. Came out yesterday. It is not legislation nor regulation yet, only a policy agenda. Still a hell of a lot more significant than one of those Greenpeace “reports” saying how they think it should be done. Plus, these policies have broad support in Parliament.

  • From the actual document: Only Zero-Emissions Capable Cars Sold By 2035 is an aspiration, as is Only Zero-Emissions Capable Cars On The Road By 2050.

  • Residential Natural Gas Phaseout is a concrete suggestion to change the law, though not a real bill yet.

Now to see some actual legislation along these plans.

This could well be promising…

Who said anything about NP being perfect? The problem is that you want a perfect solution for waste while ignoring the fact that despite its problems it is a better solution than what we currently do. 7 million people are dying yearly from air pollution and nuclear power could save most of those lives. Throw in all the problems with AGW and there’s no comparison.

Humans are terrible at calculating risk and this is a prime example.

Right, nuclear power has its downsides. Transitioning from coal to nuclear, however, does not, because every downside nuclear has, coal has too, except worse.

Now, maybe we should be moving away from big, inflexible plants entirely, in which case we shouldn’t use nuclear, either. I don’t know all of the numbers on that one. But we definitely shouldn’t be using coal.

And so you persist in creating strawman arguments that don’t represent what I’ve said, and then pitchforking them rather than responding to the observatons I’ve actually made

The supposed “solution” of the Yucca Mountain Repository is not only not a “perfect” solution, it isn’t even a workable solution. It already cannot store the amount of nuclear waste material that currently exists (see below), much less the couple orders of magnitude increase in waste production that would be necessary to comprehensively replace fossil fuel use (or even just coal fired plants) with nuclear fission. Any plan going forward to use nuclear fission to replace any substantial amount of current and planned future capacity of power production (and any realistic plan will have this assumption) needs to account for some other method of waste storage and disposal. Currently, plants are sited for a limited amount of on-site wet pool and dry cask storage as an interim measure prior to some final method of disposal. Unless and until a new method of dealing with nuclear waste is developed (and there are no plans to develop any new long term geological respositories, nor a technically suitable site to do so for this large a volume of material), nuclear plants are going to have to plan for (and be sited for) long term storage of their fuel and residual waste. This isn’t a political issue, or an “Obama is destroying America!” claim, or anything other than an actual, verifiable fact.

This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t include nuclear fission in the array of options for future power needs, and in fact as I’ve stated repeatedly this is unavoidable in both the immediate and longer term planning until the point that at carbon neutral replacement for fission (presumably nuclear fusion) becomes technically and commercially viable. It doesn’t mean, however, that it makes sense (or is even practical) to go out and construct hundreds of Generation III once-through fuel cycle plants as quickly as we can (which would be a minimum of 8-10 years before plants come online, notwithstanding having to expand or construct new fuel processing and enrichement facilities to support the growing capacity). It means we need to look at a deployment schemes that combine quickly deployable renewables and carbon abatement/sequestration methods in fossil plants that allow deactivating the worst polluting and most inefficient plants, constructing a more modest number of existing fission reactor designs, and doing phased development and maturity of fuel reprocessing and full burnup Generation IV plants. That’s the groundwork for a coherent energy policy. Planning to dump the waste in a repository that doesn’t have the capacity to store the waste and build a bunch of fission plants that we don’t have the capacity to consruct or support is not a plan; it’s a fiction.

From “Will the United States Need a Second Geologic Repository?”, Per F. Peterson, National Acadamy of Engineering:
The NWPA limits the capacity of the proposed Yucca Mountain repository to 63,000 MT of initial heavy metal in commercial spent fuel.5 The 103 U.S. commercial reactors currently operating will produce this quantity of spent fuel by 2014. Recently, the federal government has started to issue 20-year license renewals for U.S. nuclear plants, extending the permitted plant operating life to 60 years. As of May 2003, 16 U.S. plants had received renewals and 14 applications were under review; 22 more applications are expected in the next two years. Because of the low average production cost of nuclear electricity (1.69 cents per kilowatt-hour in 2002), it is anticipated that a substantial fraction of remaining U.S. plants will also seek renewals, thus increasing the total federal spent-fuel management obligation for current reactors to as much as 125,000 MT. Licenses for new plant construction would increase the total further.

I calculate quantifiable risks as a part of my job. Risk is definitionally not an “either/or” condition; it is a spectrum of the best estimates of opportunity cost and practicality versus likelihood and consequence. It is rarely the case in a complex scenario that there is one simple way to deliniate the optimum solution to risk; if there were, someone would have made that decision long ago and there wouldn’t be a debate over the risks. In the case of energy policy, there is no single technology that is clearly and comprehensively superior to all others for the purpose of replacing fossil fuel use and obtaining the most effective reduction in atmospheric carbon emissions. A plan to do so requires a phased approach that balances the needs to effect immediate reduction with ultimate sustainability of future energy production. To ignore this and just advocate what seems most simple is to escape one corner only to paint yourself into another.

Stranger

That 6.5 million is mostly cars and coal plants in China and India. They both have nuclear power.
The US has nothing to do with that.

As for calculating risk, I believe the risk assessors who built Fukushima did indeed calculate the risk to be about zero. Hm. Humans are indeed terrible at calculating risk.

Sorry for the late response. You act like Fukushima is the trump card but it’s not. How many people have died so far from radiation at Fukushima? 0 (per Wiki). Estimates of future deaths range from 130-640 people (again per Wiki). Almost 16 thousand people died (over 18k if you include the missing) in a major disaster that completely destroyed ~127k buildings. It’s actually a testament to how good nuclear power actually is.

The costs of containing, decommisioning, and compensation form damage and dislocation due to the meltdowns of the Fukushima Diiachi disaster are currently estimated to exceed US$176B and expected to rise. There have been concerns expressed for years prior to Fukushima Diiachi about the potential for seismic hazards on the siting of Japanse nuclear power stations.

Advocating for nuclear fission power production as a necessary alternative to fossil fuels to mitigate global warming effects (which it is) does not mean ignoring the potential for long duration, high criticality risks involved in catastrophic loss of control and containment. It means that further research and development of more failsafe systems, and especially systems capable of greater fuel utilization and burnup to reduce the problems of dealing with resultant waste products.

Stranger

Coal and gas are even worse long range disasters. Here’s some research (warning: PDF) comparing deaths caused by Fukushima and the estimated deaths the other power sources would caused. Even when comparing the second-worst nuclear power disaster to normal gas/coal operation, nuclear power is still safer.

This whole comparing deaths per kilowatt is, and always has been desperate weaksauce.

Chernobyl’s Real Horror Show Isn’t the Radiation, It’s the Economics

I believe in going all in on renewables. I would support research into nuclear power, of course.

But I’m from southwest Missouri. We get monster tornadoes here. Repeatedly. Building a fission reactor here is playing Russian roulette with the region. Low chance of a direct hit by an EF-5, but a swath of land all the way to Kansas City uninhabitable if it happens.

Windmills, solar, maybe a wood-chip burning plant for peak hours, or giant flywheels for energy storage–those are the answer here.

You are free to pursue nukes in places where the risk of disaster is nil.

What makes you think that?

I don’t know what foolsguinea considers as “a swath” but the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone is an area of more than 1,000 sq miles (2,600 sq km) in which background radiation levels are estimated to exceed safe long term habitation levels (less than 50 mSv/yr for healthy adults, a fraction for children, elderly, or immune compromised) for somewhere between the next 20 and ‘several hundred’ years, depending on what threshold you consider to be suitable, how radiation samples are used to define trends, and the degree of confidence in the currently degrading sarcophagus that entombed Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant Reactor #4 and the subsequent New Safe Confinement building. There are additional areas between Krychow and Dobrush in eastern Belarus and western Russia that are also not safely inhabitable for long durations by children because of [SUP]137[/SUP]Cs contamination. And it was fortunate that the Chernobyl reactor was located in a remote northern corner of the Ukraine near Pripyat where its impact on industrial and urban areas was not significant and agricultural areas was modest in the overall context. A similar disaster Missouri, in prime agricultural areas, would render grain cultivation and livestock farming in those areas unviable for a substantial period of time (decades even with massive cleanup efforts).

Someone is presently going to come along and make the patent statement that “Chernobyl is like a reactor from another dimension, and that can’t happen again,” which is the stock response from blithe nuclear power advocates every time someone brings up that NES-7 event. Except the massive radiation release from the Fukushima plant was also supposed to be virtually impossible, and Japan was fortunate that the location of the release was at the middle northeastern are of Honshu where radioactive actinides were carried off into the Pacific Ocean where they would be diluted rather than across land masses where they would settle and contaminate agricultural regions. The reality is that nuclear plants, like any other surface structure, are subject to external and uncontrollable hazards which given the criticality and persistence of the effects of a catastrophic release of corium materials (not just radioactive steam as in the Three Mile Island release which was only of transient concern) have to be accounted for in risk assessment and mitigation. A single serious nuclear accident was one of the major causative elements in bringing down the Soviet Union (which was admittedly economically bankrupt, but had been so since at least the 'Sixties) and the cost of such an event in somewhere like the American Mid-West might have a total mitigation and cleanup cost in the many hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars, not to mention the economic impact and carbon footprint of cleanup efforts or the political fallout.

All of this is not an argument against nuclear power per se; it is an argument against the obtuse optimism that no catastrophe will occur because “no major accident” has ever occurred, which is a patently false premise. There is a need to consider the effects of even unlikely, “beyond worst case” and “once in five hundred year” accidents, because we are not good at either predicting the actual incidence of those events or the degree of damage they can do. One proposal from the 'Eighties involved building nuclear plants underground in abandoned salt mines and salt domes such that both the plant and wastes produced could be entombed at end of life, thus mitigating the costs and risks of dismantlement and relocating expended fuel and contaminated materials to a long term storage facility which we currently don’t have nor have any viable plan for constructing. However, while this concept is viable from a protection and containment standpoint, it is logistically challenging and there are a limited number of locations where it is physically viable notwithstanding the political opposition.

I think a better solution is to invest in and continue to develop technologies for full burn up, more compact, secure, and robust power generation systems, and developing readily deployed renewables and point-of-source carbon sequestration systems to mitigate the worst polluting power production in the near term. Short of developing nuclear fusion or some other genuinely carbon neutral power production system, we are going to have to dramatically expand our use of nuclear fission for power production, and probably as a energy source for fuel synthesis and industrial uses. But that doesn’t mean to turning a blind eye to the substantial and persistent hazards (both biological and fiscal) presented by the potential for a large scale release of radioactive material even if the incidence per facility/year is judged to be slight. When you build enough nuclear power facilities, even a slight incidence compounds to a high probability, and unless we have the foresight to look for every way to reduce the criticality of such an event we’ll be left holding trillions of dollars of liability when it occurs.

Stranger

Well, yeah, maybe, but if you have an accident at a wind farm or a solar power facility, you can have air and sunlight spilling out all over everything!

Why do you think a tornado would lead to any of this?

Well … a three ton automobile traveling at 300 mph could hit some vital part of the power plant … the external electrical supply would be cut … there would be complete destruction around the plant (that’s the definition of EF-5) …

Perhaps no one single thing would be a problem … but add a couple more and we’re looking at no cooling in the core, even if it successfully SCRAMed we’ve a BIG problem … it could happen … and given enough years and enough power plants it’s fair to say it will happen … as Stranger points out, we just can’t say it won’t happen … that’s not how life works …