Go To Hell, Chumpsky

The BBQ Pit
1

That’s it you fuckwit. Now you’re openly apologizing for Iosef Stalin- the beast that killed at least 20 million people. Sure, you say that he “only” killed maybe 150,000, and that he foretold the Nazi beast.

This is ahistorical tripe, you fucking gulag denier. So only 100,000 were executed in the camps? Tens of thousands more were executed in the Great Terror! Tens of thousands of Chechens and Volga Germans and many others perished when millions of people were forcibly deported to remote regions of the USSR, for no logical purpose. This is called ethnic cleansing, you psychotic bastard.

But in your world it never happened. And not only was Stalin some bulkhead against the Nazi beast, you fail to mention that he actually allied with the Nazis before he did the Allies. Not only that, but he denied the threat the Nazis posed, even as KGB officers were finding Nazi army manuals with Russian slogans! (cite: Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege by Antony Beevor) His idiocy cost the lives of thousands of young Russian soldiers that were completely unprepared for the Nazi blitzkrieg.

Oh, and then how about that Ukrainian famine that Stalin’s policies created, which killed more than six million Ukranians? Or how about the estimated more than seven million who died in the Soviet gulags during his reign? Or hey, what about those thousands of German POWs who were sent to gulags, never to return? And those few that did return, how come they were only released a fucking decade later? And I’m not talking necessarily about death camp guards; I’m talking about lowly foot soldiers often no more than 17 or 18 years of age, forcibly drafted against their will! How come of the more than 90,000 Germans taken POW at Stalingrad (Tangent: What if Bush renamed Chicago “Bush City?”), less than 8,000 ever returned home?

How come there were all those Germans in fucking Central Asia, asshole? You think they moved there, or do you not admit that Stalin’s policies dictated they be moved at gunpoint in cattle cars to a foreign land just because of their national origins?

And how about Stalin’s massacre of thousands of Polish surrendered military officers in the Katyn forest, then blamed on the Nazis? And how about that unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, with Nazi co-operation? And how about Stalin’s support of East European communist dictatorships, which would forcibly deport more than 10 million ethnic Germans after WWII?
And to say nothing of how Stalin didn’t punish those who allowed Soviet troops to rape more than 100,000 German women in captured Berlin? How about Stalin’s support for these regimes that allowed such monsters as Tito and Ceasescu to be empowered?

You fucking asshole, you see how you like it if your father was deported to Siberia just because he didn’t sing the Internationale one day, and never returned home? And then, when you, a mere young Ukranian peasant, whose mother and grandparents had died in Stalin’s engineered famine, refused to fight the Nazis, were shot and thrown into a mass unmarked grave by the NKVD, how would you fucking like it?

Then some asshole ignoramus 60 years later in a foreign nation outright denies that such atrocities occured, how would you fucking like it?

You’re worse than a Holocaust denier, you sick fuck.

2

Witcha all the way, babe, but are you sure we needed to give him yet another Pit thread?

This very subject is already being discussed over there; furthermore, to the amusement of all, he’s now trying to play as though he never apologized for Stalin:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=154878&pagenumber=3

3

If Chumpsky is indeed a Communist, it would impossible to argue with him. ESPECIALLY if he’s defending Stalin.

He said something about how he went from a LF Capitalist to a Communist. Sounds like someone who simply went from one extreme to another. Not uncommon.

That’s why it’s good to be a moderate! :smiley: If you go from one end to the other, you’ll never take things to extremes. And you won’t have “this or that” attitude that tends to plague most sides.

4

There are no true communists. There hasn’t been since the first church.

5

Now, you are just taking my words and twisting them beyond all recognition.

My response about Stalin was a response to the claim that Stalin had killed 61 million. I have never argued that Stalin was not a monster, but there are some things that just go way over the top. There has always been an effort made on the part of reactionaries to claim that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, if not worse. This was a delusion I once shared. But, really, the comparison is absurd, and an insult to everyone who suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

There is no doubt that Stalin committed some monstrous crimes, in his heartless purges of the old Bolshevik revolution, in his forced deportations, and so on, like you say. Nobody is defending this, and to claim that I have is to seriously twist my words.

What I have said is that it is absurd to lay the deaths that resulted from industrialization in the 1930’s at Stalin’s feet, without at least giving some credit on the other side of the balance sheet for the good that came from industrialization, like, yes, slaying the Nazi beast. Can’t you at least give some credit to the Soviets for defeating the Nazis?

Here we must note that Stalin did indeed foretell the impending Nazi invasion, proclaiming that Russia had ten years to do what Britain did in 100. The industrial build-up of the 1930’s was the only thing that prevented a Nazi conquest. No doubt, Stalin made some monstrous mistakes before the war that place him as one of the 20th centuries worst leaders, and that had these crimes not been committed, Russia would have been able to defeat the Nazis with less sacrifice. But, some credit must be given to the Russians–not just to Stalin–for the industrial build-up.

6

chumpsky wrote:

That’s not true chumpsky. I read the other thread where you passed on some study that purported Stalin “only” killed 799,445 Russians. You sounded like some demented defense attorney trying to convince the jury his client was only, “A poor misunderstood boy who was only trying to help by taking their money before they wasted it on food and medicine.”

But lucky for me, I find you full of giggle appeal.

7

Apparently you didn’t read too carefully. What has been found is that there were 799,445 executions for all offenses from 1921-1953 in Russia, with between 12 and 30 percent being for political crimes from year to year. In addition, a large number of these were executions during WWII, of Nazi collaborators. The number of people executed under Stalin for “anti-Soviet” crimes is less than 200,000.

You want to call these executed for political crimes murdered by Stalin? Fine. But the rest of the deaths attributed to Stalin really reach into the absurd, with anticommunist fanatics like R.J. Rummel claiming that Stalin killed 61 million! The figures that are thrown around are so ridiculous that you really must wonder about the sanity of those who use them.

For example, this site claims a population of Russia in 1922 of 88 million, and in 1940 of 110 million. What happened to those 61 million killed!?

Most of these claims are, of course, political. Numerous “studies” have been done that come up with outrageous numbers for numbers “killed by Stalin” by starvation or dislocation, such as blaming Stalin for 10 million (or 20 million, or 30 million depending on how reactionary you are) killed in a 1932-3 Ukrainian famine. However, these figures are at the very least controversial, and seem to emanate from solidly right-wing sources.

In addition, you have some truly revisionist tripe thrown around by the likes of Daoloth, like this: “[Stalin] actually allied with the Nazis before he did the Allies.” That is an interesting way to spin the actual events, where Stalin tried desperately to form an anti-Nazi alliance with the western powers in the 1930’s, only to be ignored, and signed a 12th-hour non-aggression treaty with Hitler to try to avoid the upcoming invasion. Lost in all of this crap, also, is the very real collaboration between Britain and the Nazis in the invasion of Czechoslovakia, via the Hitler-Chamberlain Pact, antiseptically referred to here as “Munich.”

What is the most troublesome is the blinding double-standards used to evaluate communists and capitalists. So, for instance, the collaboration of Chamberlain with Hitler, not to mention the active support given to Hitler by American and other western industrialists like Henry Ford, ITT, General Motors, Ford, and Dupont–this is called “appeasement.” On the other hand, a last-minute treaty signed by Stalin is a meeting of two like-minded devils. Note especially how western collaboraters with the Nazis are treated. After the war, instead of being prosecuted for treason, ITT collected $27 million from the U.S. government for damage done by Allied bombings to its German plants; General Motors collected $33 million. Pilots were instructed not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S. firms producing German war machines. Indeed, German civilians began using the plants as air raid shelters.

Then, after the war, the U.S. reconstituted much of the old Nazi intelligence apparatus to run its anticommunist programs in Eastern Europe and Latin America. They brought Death Squads and torture to Latin America where it flourished under the U.S. aegis.

All of this is consigned to the memory hole, but the thing we do remember is the most talked about treaty in history, the “Hitler-Stalin Pact.” This contrasts quite markedly with the way the Soviets dealt with the Nazis. They executed the bastards in East Germany, instead of organizing them into their own death squads.

What I am saying is not that Stalin was a good guy, but just that we should look at him more objectively, without all of the anticommunist mythology.

8

Which was never claimed in the first place.

9

Wow. 150,000. That’s a lot. Any more than that, and we’d be talking mass murder here.

10

Speaking of the “memory hole”, Chumpsky, there’s apparently a vast chasm in your memory. Or else you are conveniently omitting some key facts, like Britain was still pursuing an alliance with the Soviet Union up to the time that Stalin cynically forged his partnership with Hitler. Or that Stalin, unlike Chamberlain, used his “accomodation” with Hitler to seize territory (i.e. in Poland). And you are still claiming wonders for the “industrial buildup” by Stalin in winning the war, without acknowledging that most of that industrial capacity was seized early in the German invasion and that the Soviets depended heavily on Allied support - aid that, according to you, the evil capitalists would never provide to a socialist nation.

If you can ever put aside your fossilized dogma and talk some sense, let us know.

11

Hey man, the guy only turns evil once he’s killed a million people-before that we just chalk it up to youthful exuberance. I mean, we’ve all had our bad days, right? The days when getting out of bed is a chore and that one person questions how you do things at exactly the wrong moment, so you know what-kill him. As long as you don’t get over a million, you aren’t really evil, just misunderstood. :rolleyes:

12

Except he doesn’t.

The 62 million comes from the Soviet Union from 1917 to 1987, not Stalin’s personal death tally.

13

He credits Stalin for only 43 million kills.

14

I’ll let my father, a 75 year old man from the Ukraine know about this. I’m sure he’ll be very glad to hear that the actual famine was no where near as bad as he remembered and that his so called first hand experiance was nothing more than right wing propaganda. And here he was hating Stalin all these years. :rolleyes:

15

I agree with the OP 100% with the exception of one word.

Change “worse” to “as bad as” and it’d be perfect.

Boy, Chumpsky is an ass.

Fenris

16

Chump, you can apply labels like “reactionary” and claim that Rummel is an “anti-communist fanatic” all you want, but at some point you’ve got to come up with the goods. What evidence do you have that these figure are false? What evidence do you have, other than your say-so, that Rummel is an anti-communist fanatic?

Finally, why do you continue to play this absurd game of dismissing deaths caused by Communist misrule while simultaneously overstating deaths caused by capitalist misrule? Could it be that you’re a fanatic of another sort?

17

Yup. It’s not even worth trying to be more creative than that. He is what he is, and it doesn’t look like he’s going to be changed by logic or even the truth.

18

Well, more were killed by Stalin than died in the Holocaust, so my personal opinion deems that Chumpsky’s denial is worse. But to each their own; debating who is worse is a slippery slope best left to GD, and not anything related to Chumpsky.

19

>> Boy, Chumpsky is an ass

Finally something everybody can agree on.

20

I don’t know anything about Mr. Chumpski, and I’m not really sure what this pit thread is about, but one of the reasons that the Soviets suffered so horribly during the early stages of the Nazi invasion was because Stalin had repeatedly purged the Red Army officer corps during the 1930s.