That would be my take-away, yes. Happily, people don’t actually do that often — I could only find a couple cases of charges brought for assisting in suicide since 2000.
Section 7 of the Charter protects life, liberty, and security of the person. The Supreme Court was basically saying that when someone suffers from incurable, enduring pain, the law must not stop them from ending the pain. It’s a very different situation from the facts of this case.
Suspended invalidity means that Parliament has 12 months to come up with a new version of s.241 that allows for physician-assisted suicide. After that, the provision will no longer be valid. As best I know, the Conservative Party doesn’t want to touch this — their supporters largely oppose assisted suicide, and the general electorate supports it — so it probably won’t be addressed until after the next election.
A trend, yes, though I wouldn’t describe it as disturbing. It’s a side effect of finally having public conversations acknowledging how damaging bullying really is. We’re finally getting to a point where “Eh, kids, waddaya gonna do?” is not an acceptable responsible adult response anymore. We’re realizing we need to actually invest ourselves in protecting people with minimal or undeveloped defenses from those who would harm them. We’re realizing that putting the blame and the burden to resolve the issue on the victim instead of the perpetrator is the wrong approach, is unjust, and only compounds the problem – doing nothing to discourage the perpetrators because hey, no one will blame them or call them out for it, and it makes it easier for future perpetrators to get away with shit because everyone with any authority is too busy blaming the victim. We have a long, long way to go, but at least the conversation is happening. I don’t know why expecting perpetrators to be held responsible for their actions is such a revolutionary idea.
So… his girlfriend telling him to kill himself wouldn’t convince him that she thinks he’s worthless, and in fact couldn’t possibly have that much influence on his decision to kill himself, yet the abstract idea of getting revenge via suicide would have so much influence that it would create a noticeable uptick? Which is it?
The disturbing part is it potentially increasing the number of suicides. Maybe I did not state that clearly.
I never said that the girlfriend “couldn’t possibly” have had any influence on his decision. I do think that she did influence him, both over the course of the preceding weeks/months and at the crucial moment when he got out of the car.
I don’t see evidence that she convinced him he was worthless or that that is necessarily what someone who commits suicide believes about themselves. I think her tactics were more insidious than ordinary insults, which is probably why they were effective. In general though, using only your voice and text messages, you will be unlikely to convince any given person to kill themselves, even if you are a moderately attractive seventeen-year-old. Her choice of victim was a big part of her success.
The idea that getting your picture in the paper and your name on everyone’s lips is enough to inspire a killing spree and so the rest of us ought not discuss the names of people like Elliot Rodger, James Holmes, or Adam Lanza for fear of motivating others is given serious consideration, even though those people get an outpouring of hate. Wanting to be remembered after your death is pretty normal, and being remembered as a “hero” while those that treated you badly are sent to jail is obviously an attractive feature for some. As far as whether it could/does/will cause a “noticeable uptick,” I think the friends and families will notice, regardless of what percentage of suicides occurs that would not have otherwise.
That sounds terrible. If someone asks my opinion, how can I be legally obligated to lie or refuse to answer?
Let’s say this same girl is my airplane seatmate and, as people are wont to do, spills her guts. She expresses pride in her persuasive powers and is pleased at the death of the young man, but fears that her life will be downhill, as all that brings her pleasure is causing innocent people to suffer and raping babies. She loves these activities and vows never to stop, regardless of consequence. Alas, the world does not understand or accept her, and she has come to the conclusion that suicide is probably her best option and asks whether I agree. I do.
Alas, I did not realize that our plane has been diverted to Toronto and a Canadian marshal seated behind us heard the whole thing. Upon landing, I am arrested.
Feelings of worthlessness are one of the diagnostic criteria for major depression, along with suicidal ideation. I really don’t think it’s a great leap to think that his feeling worthless played a part in this case.
The key difference between these cases is that Elliot Rodger et al. turned their negative emotions, and blame, outward. They killed other people before they killed themselves. Those who are suicidal turn their negative emotions inward, against themselves. They are completely different psychological processes. Vengeance is outward-facing. Suicide is not.
If you’d seriously counsel someone to kill themselves rather than turn themselves in and/or get therapy, or even just back out of the conversation as quickly as possible and call the cops yourself, then yes, I’d say justice was served. That’s horrifying.
One of the possible criteria, not one that is necessary for a diagnosis.
I don’t think publicity creates either spree killers or suicide victims from scratch. My point was that a similar mechanism may apply. The idea that after-the-fact publicity for spree killers may influence future potential spree-killers is not without merit. Similarly, hailing the suicide victim as a hero and arresting their tormentors clearly adds appeal to the idea.
Many people believe the girl should be executed, suffer violent acts in prison, or drowned with her hands behind her back, but you’re “horrified” that I wouldn’t object to an enhanced extra-evil version of her–one that rapes babies, torments people for fun, and plans never to stop–committing suicide? Sorry, but if someone chooses to take their own life and that prevents a bunch of suffering or death of innocent people, I’m not going to stand in the way. That’s the kind of monster I am.
You do realise this thread isn’t about you, right?
This girl wasn’t a tormenter. She may have been perfectly lovely to her boyfriend the rest of the time. But she told him to get back in the car when he expressed doubt about killing himself. That is a very direct instruction to kill himself, not just a vague insult. The difference is absolutely enormous.
You missed the part about “not a great leap” then?
I haven’t heard anyone but you refer to the victim as a hero. Seems like most people are using the word “tragic.” I’m having trouble imagining a news outlet calling a victim a hero without getting some serious backlash. Who would dare imply that a tragic suicide is a good thing?
What thread are YOU reading??
I’m horrified that you would actually advise someone to kill themselves. I’m horrified that you would actually say that out loud to a person’s face. Most people don’t indulge their darker impulses. Those that do, end up like this girl on the news.
Assisting a suicide is a crime in almost every state, and in the states where it’s gray, there’s usually an allowance for physician-assisted suicide, and usually the person needs to be terminally ill, or very disabled-- depression alone doesn’t usually wash. Dr. Kevorkian had a lot of supporters when he was helping people with aggressive MS, or cancer with intractable pain commit suicide, but when he assisted a woman with clinical depression and no physical ailment to die, he lost a lot of support. I’m just reporting: I’m not prepared to debate the topic myself. My point simply is that she is not a physician, and he was not a candidate for physician-assisted suicide at any rate, so I think that a charge of assisting suicide is probably appropriate. Whether that exists as a separate charge, or is just a form of manslaughter, I don’t know. I don’t even know about that point of law in any state where I’ve lived, let alone one where I’ve never lived.
Yup. That was her Kevorkian moment. That was when she stopped playing Gaslight, and became an active participant in the suicide.
Yes, there is. That’s why the Canadian law – if it is interpreted as straight man says – seems to go too far, and why I asked for clarification of the term “counseling.” I was curious to see if it recognized that distinction.
I didn’t say this girl was a tormenter. I was referring to some earlier situations in which people have been charged with various crimes related to someone else’s suicide and which have received a lot of media coverage.
Here are some of the suicides for one year blamed on cyberbullying. Charges have been brought against the bullies in many of these cases.
It’s an assumption, not a leap. Yes, it is possible, even not unlikely, but the part about it being true is something you’ve made up.
Again, I was not referring to this particular case. Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen who committed suicide not long ago springs to mind. She even said in her note that her “death needs to mean something” and pleads that we “fix society.” Dan Savage has demanded that her parents be charged in the case and this view received a lot of public support (though I don’t think any charges were made).
I’m not going to cite things for you that are right in this very thread. It’s interesting how you haven’t noticed people expressing their desire for her to be shot in the head, sentenced to the death penalty, or for her to be dumped in a river with her hands bound in order to die in the most painful way possible, but you can muster up “horror” for me not objecting to someone choosing suicide instead of living the rest of their life as an active baby rapist and tormenter of innocent people.
There is no “dark impulse” involved here. Why should I want someone’s life to continue when they do not AND when they intend to use whatever time they have left to cause others harm?
Wouldn’t it be better if Elliot Rodger had just committed suicide instead of killing innocent people first? Those people would still be alive.
Or the Boston Marathon bombers. Or the Batman shooter. Or the people that flew into the Twin Towers.
And of course…
If Hitler had just killed himself when he didn’t get into art school, maybe the whole Holocaust could have been avoided.
But the only case where a charge of manslaughter has been brought is this case. If you’re going to argue there’s a terrible slippery slope where people can be charged for manslaughter too easily, which would encourage potential suicides to kill themselves as a form of revenge, then you have to talk about the case that actually has the manslaughter charge. The other cases are completely irrelevent.
The people charged in those other cases were bullies whose actions were easy to prove because they were all written down via social media. They committed crimes of various sorts. None of the charges depended on their victim being dead.
After setting the precedent with THIS case, future cases similar to THOSE PAST cases, might receive this treatment.
Why do you believe I must talk currently about only this case? I am talking about potential future consequences of setting the precedent of a conviction here. The case does not appear to meet the criteria of an involuntary manslaughter charge, but if there is a conviction and that conviction is not overturned, precedent has been set and that can be used to apply the law to future situations that also do not appear to meet the criteria of this law.
So, always being one for a pleasant time, I didn’t want to throw anything too heavy into this thread before it got enjoy itself for a while. But I did want to add some personal experience to it.
My father was a suicide about 45 years ago when I was 12. He ate poison at his office in the middle of the night while speaking on the phone with my mother, who talked with him for the several hours it took to die. She didn’t call for help.
In explaining herself years later when we assembled the remaining family for a therapy session, she said that she was of course happy that he had died, as we still would have had the problem if he had lived. My sister, who had been 10 when father died, agreed with this opinion and reason. The therapist afterwards told me that they were the two coldest people he had ever met, after decades of doing family, group, and individual therapy for a living.
It only takes a little connecting the dots to describe mom as having goaded dad into suicide, or at least having encouraged him and talked him through it. We’ve been totally estranged for the 27 years since this attempt at therapy, and I can’t really imagine changing that willingly.
Sorry if this sends the thread careening off the rails, but, this is the closest thing to direct experience in here.
Napier: Thank you so much for sharing that! I’m so sorry you had to go through that; and so glad that you freed yourself from your Mother. What a horrible situation you were left in. I know what it is to be raised by people who can’t really understand love, they only see “ally” or “useless.”
May I ask what “the problem” was in her eyes? Did his death provide insurance money that she was counting on? Or did she consider him to be somehow standing in the way of her happiness?
On first reading, my assumption was that Dad had been abusing your sister. But the rest of your post doesn’t seem to support any wrongdoing on his part.
The therapist and I both failed to understand what “the problem” was in her eyes. I never got any clue that my father abused my sister or anybody else (there’s a tangent here I’d be happy to tell you about but it’d be quite the thread hijack, so PM me if you are interested). He had had a girlfriend on the side since before they even married, and he had “a drinking problem”, and pretty clearly some deep depression or worse, so it could have been any of these, but overall I think of him as the better parent. I think there was insurance money but not enough to kill for. As to what he was in the way of, I don’t know. The way I interpret it is that our family seemed pretty fractured down the middle, mom and sister on one side and father and me (and his mother) on the other. I got the pretty strong message that I was some kind of problem too, like he was, but still not exactly what problem.
While fretting about the usual list last night, it occurred to me I didn’t speak to the fair punishment question, which was the OP. I think something should have happened to my mother over this, but I don’t know if there was much evidence of her role. If she said they talked while he did this, they probably would have asked why she didn’t call for help or something, and I have no idea where this might have gone, but I never heard anything about it (nor would a 12 year old typically). I do remember adversarial men in suits coming to the house about some problem, men she didn’t want there, but she said they were lawyers talking about the company he own and ran, which seems plausible. There didn’t seem to be much interaction between our little family and the rest of the world on this. No funeral, no obituaries that I could ever find (though there was a death certificate I got years later). I stayed out of school 2 days, no counseling or anything like that. In effect, he just disappeared, and as far as I knew no probing questions ever got asked.
Continuing to follow this story…this woman waived her right to a Jury Trial, which is probably a smart move since everyone around here openly despises her.