God and Life

[Biffster]

@QuickSilver

If I’m honest, I’ve read all I need to read from Mr. Walsch. I simply do not subscribe to New Age ideas because I’ve find them to be without merit.

But it that does not turn you off from my suggested reading, then I suggest you start with Robert Wright’s blog. I think you’ll find his interest in human development and insights on religion and faith to be well thought out. He refers to himself as a Secular Humanistand doesn’t entirely exclude the possibility of a grander purpose, though he does not believe in creationism or intelligent design. I think his reasoning is far more cogent and coherent than what you’ve presented from NDW and your own beliefs. To whatever extent your ideas overlap with his, you may find his views interesting and enlightening. Or not. Entirely up to you.

Okay. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Biffster]

@DavidwithanR

I really life discussing things that interest me. I’ve done it all my life. The topics of life and life are some of my favourites. However, one-sidedly listening to someone explain how he has lifed life his whole life, and that he believes life and life and life all mean the same thing - I mean, life, life gets tiring sometimes… Oh well. Don’t forget that life lifes you - in fact, life IS life. Also keep in mind that you can’t legitimately life others unless you life yourself first.

And whatever you do, don’t turn to a god of crime. Your godded ones would be lonely and blue for the rest of their gods if you received a god sentence and spent the rest of your god in prison. What kind of a god would that be?

Well, I hope in the future I hear you are off on some tropical island loving the good love. Maybe even that you’ve fallen in life. Or you may just go swimming for the rest of your love, watch reruns of This Is Your God and The God Boat, and read Love magazine.

Clever! And yet not.

[DavidwithanR]

@Biffster

Clever! And yet not.

Oh, for the life of love, lighten up. God’s too short.

[begbert2]

Seriously, Biffster, if you don’t want people to be playing around by carelessly swapping around the words “life”, “god” (and now ‘love’) without regard for their definitions, perhaps you should start caring about their definitions. Seriously, define the damn words already so we can discuss whether they’re the same, whether they’re real, what interaction they have with humans, and whether they taste good with ketchup!

[Telemark]

@Biffster

Clever! And yet not.

Responsive! And yet not.

[Biffster]

@begbert2

Seriously, Biffster, if you don’t want people to be playing around by carelessly swapping around the words “life”, “god” (and now ‘love’) without regard for their definitions, perhaps you should start caring about their definitions. Seriously, define the damn words already so we can discuss whether they’re the same, whether they’re real, what interaction they have with humans, and whether they taste good with ketchup!

You’ve never heard “God is Love” before? That’s a pretty common sentiment at the church where I grew up. I can’t take credit for it. Maybe people need to be a little less anal retentive with their insistence on the separation of terminology and look beyond simple semantics to get to the message. God is LIKE life which is LIKE love if it makes you feel better. Personally, I’ve always found metaphor to be more powerful than simile, but maybe it’s just me.

[Biffster]

@DavidwithanR

Oh, for the life of love, lighten up. God’s too short.

Your best yet!

[QuickSilver]

@Biffster

You’ve never heard “God is Love” before? That’s a pretty common sentiment at the church where I grew up. I can’t take credit for it. Maybe people need to be a little less anal retentive with their insistence on the separation of terminology and look beyond simple semantics to get to the message. God is LIKE life which is LIKE love if it makes you feel better. Personally, I’ve always found metaphor to be more powerful than simile, but maybe it’s just me.

TBH, nine pages of this and we’re still no further along because you keep making the same assertions and we keep rejecting them as utter nonsense. And it’s not because nobody on this side of the argument is capable of understanding a metaphor. We’re all very familiar with God is Love. We understand what people who say it would like it to mean. We really do. I’d even go so far as saying that we understand where you’re going with the Life=God thing. It’s dead easy imagery to picture because it can mean any damn thing we want to imagine it to mean and it can change tomorrow.

What I, like so many others, have been trying to explain to you, is that while you find that imagery meaningful and deep, I find it trite and deepity. Ooops, there’s that word again! But you give no indication that anything we’re saying is getting through to you, at all. Frankly, the only thing that you’ve responded with is that we’re all just a bunch of meanies who hate metaphors, puppies and rainbows; we’re just out to harsh your buzz.

I’m sure you’re a nice guy and pleasant company over a few drinks, but it seems extremely unlikely that anybody here is going to change your mind in any way. You sure as hell haven’t presented anything to change mine. So I’m done here.

[begbert2]

@Biffster

You’ve never heard “God is Love” before? That’s a pretty common sentiment at the church where I grew up. I can’t take credit for it. Maybe people need to be a little less anal retentive with their insistence on the separation of terminology and look beyond simple semantics to get to the message. God is LIKE life which is LIKE love if it makes you feel better. Personally, I’ve always found metaphor to be more powerful than simile, but maybe it’s just me.

I’ve heard “God is love” before, and it’s a badly-phrased way of saying “God is loving” - that god is a loving, benevolent deity (in stark contrast to his actual biblically-recorded behavior).

It’s a semantically equivalent phrase to “ice cream is happiness”. The takeaway there isn’t that the emotion of happiness melts when it gets warm, by the way.
To say the phrase is meant to literally equate the meaning of the terms “God” and “love” is, well, I’ll be charitable and just say it’s a very strange way to interpret the phrase. I’m quite confident that the intent of the phrase was never to strip God of all non-love attributes and turn God into an unthinking(?) insensate(?) collective(?) force. Interpreting the phrase to be redefining God that way would by like reading the phrase “begbert2 is male” and interpreting it to mean that I’m manifested inside every entity that has a dick.

[Biffster]

@QuickSilver

TBH, nine pages of this and we’re still no further along because you keep making the same assertions and we keep rejecting them as utter nonsense. And it’s not because nobody on this side of the argument is capable of understanding a metaphor. We’re all very familiar with God is Love. We understand what people who say it would like it to mean. We really do. I’d even go so far as saying that we understand where you’re going with the Life=God thing. It’s dead easy imagery to picture because it can mean any damn thing we want to imagine it to mean and it can change tomorrow.

What I, like so many others, have been trying to explain to you, is that while you find that imagery meaningful and deep, I find it trite and deepity. Ooops, there’s that word again! But you give no indication that anything we’re saying is getting through to you, at all. Frankly, the only thing that you’ve responded with is that we’re all just a bunch of meanies who hate metaphors, puppies and rainbows; we’re just out to harsh your buzz.

I’m sure you’re a nice guy and pleasant company over a few drinks, but it seems extremely unlikely that anybody here is going to change your mind in any way. You sure as hell haven’t presented anything to change mine. So I’m done here.

I didn’t think changing someone’s was the purpose of a discussion or even a debate. I thought it could also be about the exchange of ideas without the requirement for someone to be right and someone to be wrong. You find this theory despite, and that’s fine by me. I would be shocked (and a little scared, to be honest) if everyone bought into this theory hook, line and sinker. What I do expect to see, however, is respect and tolerance for other points of view. In that sense I’m a little disappointed in the reactions of some people, but c’est la vie.

If you have anything else you’d recommend reading before you go, I’d be happy to hear about it. I’ve had some great recommendations already which I’d like to pursue as time permits.

[Biffster]

@begbert2

I’ve heard “God is love” before, and it’s a badly-phrased way of saying “God is loving” - that god is a loving, benevolent deity (in stark contrast to his actual biblically-recorded behavior).

It’s a semantically equivalent phrase to “ice cream is happiness”. The takeaway there isn’t that the emotion of happiness melts when it gets warm, by the way.

To say the phrase is meant to literally equate the meaning of the terms “God” and “love” is, well, I’ll be charitable and just say it’s a very strange way to interpret the phrase. I’m quite confident that the intent of the phrase was never to strip God of all non-love attributes and turn God into an unthinking(?) insensate(?) collective(?) force. Interpreting the phrase to be redefining God that way would by like reading the phrase “begbert2 is male” and interpreting it to mean that I’m manifested inside every entity that has a dick.

Well if you’ll poetic license with the phrase “God is love,” why not allow the same license with “God is life”? It seems to me that both expressions are metaphors and not meant to be taken literally, which is exactly what some people here have done.

I agree with what you say about the OT God, by the way—he was one mean and ornery SOB. If he wasn’t punishing some of his creations with floods and what have you, he was sending the Holy Spirit to slaughter all the first born. In the NT it’s all about forgiveness, except when it isn’t. In the Christian Bible, God is presented as a really interesting couple of guys.

[Biffster]

@Telemark

Responsive! And yet not.

Witty! Just witty.

[begbert2]

@Biffster

Well if you’ll poetic license with the phrase “God is love,” why not allow the same license with “God is life”? It seems to me that both expressions are metaphors and not meant to be taken literally, which is exactly what some people here have done.

Actually I didn’t allow the phrase “God is love” to have poetic license; I slammed it for being badly written and then took a corrected version of it very literally. God is loving = the christian god is a loving benevolent guy. Period. (According to the phrase, anyway.)

You can’t take “God is life” quite as literally - it appears to the a shortened form of the longer sentence “God is (the source of) life” or even “God is (the source of) (eternal) life” where “eternal life” is variant term for salvation. (Or alternatively eternal life is what you get ressurected into so that you can then be sent to hell.) In either case life is something that God grants - because the God this phrase is talking about is still a dude, a specific entity named El or Yahweh who is talked about in the bible. He’s not some amorphous melange of an incarnated emotion and/or extraphysical lifeforce blob.

If you don’t want to be talking about the god of the bible, you shouldn’t ask me to refer to the ‘standard’ interpretations of these phrases, because these phrases come from christianity and are totally talking about that specific god. Who is not what you seem to mean by the term.

@Biffster

I agree with what you say about the OT God, by the way—he was one mean and ornery SOB. If he wasn’t punishing some of his creations with floods and what have you, he was sending the Holy Spirit to slaughter all the first born. In the NT it’s all about forgiveness, except when it isn’t. In the Christian Bible, God is presented as a really interesting couple of guys.

He’s actually presented as a really inconsistent character, just like a lot of things from that poorly put-together book. As mythology goes it’s extremely bad fiction.

[QuickSilver]

@Biffster

I didn’t think changing someone’s was the purpose of a discussion or even a debate. I thought it could also be about the exchange of ideas without the requirement for someone to be right and someone to be wrong. You find this theory despite, and that’s fine by me. I would be shocked (and a little scared, to be honest) if everyone bought into this theory hook, line and sinker. What I do expect to see, however, is respect and tolerance for other points of view. In that sense I’m a little disappointed in the reactions of some people, but c’est la vie.

Some things, however, really are about right and wrong. I know it’s not always easy to see that. My mind has been changed in a number of debates here, over the years, on various subjects.

@Biffster

If you have anything else you’d recommend reading before you go, I’d be happy to hear about it. I’ve had some great recommendations already which I’d like to pursue as time permits.

Happy to. I’ve already mentioned Stephen Pinker, “How the mind works”. It’s a worthwhile read, imo. I’ve also enjoyed several books by Dr. Oliver Sacks (Neurologist), on abnormal brain function, due to physical or mental trauma. It’s great insight into how the mind/brain can completely alter healthy/normal perceptions of reality and how people who experience these effects, try to cope. Really fascinating reading because in addition to being quite intelligent, he’s an excellent writer. He has several books, all of which are quite good.

[Biffster]

@QuickSilver

If I’m honest, I’ve read all I need to read from Mr. Walsch. I simply do not subscribe to New Age ideas because I’ve find them to be without merit.

But it that does not turn you off from my suggested reading, then I suggest you start with Robert Wright’s blog. I think you’ll find his interest in human development and insights on religion and faith to be well thought out. He refers to himself as a Secular Humanistand doesn’t entirely exclude the possibility of a grander purpose, though he does not believe in creationism or intelligent design. I think his reasoning is far more cogent and coherent than what you’ve presented from NDW and your own beliefs. To whatever extent your ideas overlap with his, you may find his views interesting and enlightening. Or not. Entirely up to you.

To be honest, Robert Wright sounds like exactly the kind of writer I’d like to read. He’s skeptical of both religion and hardcore atheism, from the sounds of it. He describes God as a figment of the human imagination and using stories “to help control the world.” Pity you won’t be around to discuss his ideas once I’ve done some reading about him.

[QuickSilver]

@Biffster

To be honest, Robert Wright sounds like exactly the kind of writer I’d like to read. He’s skeptical of both religion and hardcore atheism, from the sounds of it. He describes God as a figment of the human imagination and using stories “to help control the world.” Pity you won’t be around to discuss his ideas once I’ve done some reading about him.

Easy now. I said I like the guy’s writing/thinking. I didn’t say I was lock step with him on every thing.

I don’t know how quickly you read and it’s been 10 years since I read his Moral Animal book. Clearly it made an impression but I’d have to re-read it in order to discuss it competently.

But go ahead and post a topic when you’re done. I would be interested in your thoughts on the book/ideas.

[Biffster]

@QuickSilver

Happy to. I’ve already mentioned Stephen Pinker, “How the mind works”. It’s a worthwhile read, imo. I’ve also enjoyed several books by Dr. Oliver Sacks (Neurologist), on abnormal brain function, due to physical or mental trauma. It’s great insight into how the mind/brain can completely alter healthy/normal perceptions of reality and how people who experience these effects, try to cope. Really fascinating reading because in addition to being quite intelligent, he’s an excellent writer. He has several books, all of which are quite good.

I read “The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat” several years ago. Fascinating collection of stories about patients who misinterpreted reality in bizarre ways. The one that stuck with me was the one about the man who honestly believed that someone on the hospital staff had amputated his leg during the night while he was asleep and replaced it with a different one. He was horrified and astounded when everytime he tried to push this false leg out of the bed, he went with it and landed in a heap on the floor. It really is strange how the human brain can so badly misinterpret things or experience things that aren’t really here. One could say this about God experiences too, I suppose. Or alien abductions. Or ghosts.

[DavidwithanR]

@Biffster

I didn’t think changing someone’s was the purpose of a discussion or even a debate. I thought it could also be about the exchange of ideas without the requirement for someone to be right and someone to be wrong. You find this theory despite, and that’s fine by me. I would be shocked (and a little scared, to be honest) if everyone bought into this theory hook, line and sinker. What I do expect to see, however, is respect and tolerance for other points of view. In that sense I’m a little disappointed in the reactions of some people, but c’est la vie.

If you have anything else you’d recommend reading before you go, I’d be happy to hear about it. I’ve had some great recommendations already which I’d like to pursue as time permits.

You posted on purpose in “Debates”. Debates are for evaluating truth and falsehood, and for determining who’s right (if anyone) and who’s wrong.

Your material has been proven wrong multiple times in multiple ways, so you’ve decided you don’t like debates. Hmmmm.

Debates are precisely about not tolerating falsehood. That’s what has happened, pure and simple.

[QuickSilver]

@Biffster

I read “The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat” several years ago. Fascinating collection of stories about patients who misinterpreted reality in bizarre ways. The one that stuck with me was the one about the man who honestly believed that someone on the hospital staff had amputated his leg during the night while he was asleep and replaced it with a different one. He was horrified and astounded when everytime he tried to push this false leg out of the bed, he went with it and landed in a heap on the floor. It really is strange how the human brain can so badly misinterpret things or experience things that aren’t really here. One could say this about God experiences too, I suppose. Or alien abductions. Or ghosts.

Indeed.

[Biffster]

@Telemark

The problem I have is that your definitions aren’t internally consistent. Life has properties that God doesn’t, unless you completely redefine God and you’ve been unwilling to do that. I could care less what you believe; but if you’re going to post in Great Debates then you should be prepared to defend your logic.

I still maintain that God, Life and Love are all abstract nouns, with tons of connotations depending on the person, but here goes. These are definitions that come from Merriam-Webster, for what it’s worth.

---

Definition of god

1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality Greek gods of love and war
3 : a person or thing of supreme value had photos of baseball’s gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4 : a powerful ruler Hollywood gods that control our movies’ fates

godded; godding
transitive verb
: to treat as a god : idolize, deify

Definition of god for English Language Learners
God : the perfect and all-powerful spirit or being that is worshipped especially by Christians, Jews, and Muslims as the one who created and rules the universe
: a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions
: a person and especially a man who is greatly loved or admired

Definition of god for Students

1 capitalized : the Being worshipped as the creator and ruler of the universe
2 : a being believed to have more than human powers Ancient peoples worshipped many gods.
3 : an object worshipped as divine

---

Life

plural lives play \ˈlīvz
1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body
b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings
c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see metabolism 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2 a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual
children … are the joy of our lives —Agnes S. Turnbull
b : one or more aspects of the process of living sex life of the frog
3 : biography 1 the life of George Washington
4 : spiritual existence transcending (see transcend 1c) physical death
his craving … for the release into the life to come —Rodney Gilbert
5 a : the period from birth to death
b : a specific phase of earthly existence adult life
c : the period from an event until death a judge appointed for life
d : a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convict’s life
6 : a way or manner of living the life of the colonists
7 : livelihood The fishing village drew its life from the sea.
8 : a vital or living being; specifically : person many lives were lost in the disaster
9 : an animating and shaping force or principle
the life of the constitution … has been not logic but experience —F. A. Ogg & Harold Zink
10 : spirit, animation saw no life in her dancing
11 : the form or pattern of something existing in reality painted from life
12 : the period of duration, usefulness, or popularity of something the expected life of the batteries
13 : the period of existence (as of a subatomic particle) — compare half-life
14 : a property (such as resilience (see resilience 1) or elasticity) of an inanimate (see inanimate 1) substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being
15 : living beings (as of a particular kind or environment) forest life
16 a : human activities
b : animate activity and movement stirrings of life
c : the activities of a given sphere, area, or time the political life of the country
17 : one providing interest and vigor life of the party
18 : an opportunity for continued viability gave the patient a new life
19 capitalized, Christian Science : god 1b
20 : something resembling animate life a grant saved the project’s life

2life
adjective
1 : of or relating to animate being
2 : lifelong a life member
3 : using a living model a life class
4 : of, relating to, or provided by life insurance a life policy

life
noun
: the ability to grow, change, etc., that separates plants and animals from things like water or rocks
: the period of time when a person is alive
: the experience of being alive

life
adjective
: of or relating to life
: done as long as a person lives : existing or lasting throughout a person’s life

life
noun \ ˈlīf
plural lives \ˈlīvz
1 : the state characterized by the ability to get and use energy, reproduce, grow, and respond to change : the quality that plants and animals lose when they die
2 : the period during which a person or thing is alive or exists
3 : all the experiences that make up the existence of a person : the course of existence I never heard of such a thing in my life!
4 : existence as a living being He saved my life.
5 : a way of living We studied the life of the ant.
6 : the time when something can be used or enjoyed the life of a battery
7 : energy and spirit They gave the party some life.
8 : biography

life
noun \ ˈlīf
plural lives play \ˈlīvz
1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional plant or animal from a dead body
b : a state of living characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2 a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual
b : a specific part or aspect of the process of living sex life adult life
— lifeless play \ˈlīf-ləs\ adjective

---

Definition of love

1 a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties maternal love for a child (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers After all these years, they are still very much in love. (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests love for his old schoolmates
b : an assurance of affection give her my love
2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion love of the sea
3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration baseball was his first love
b (1) : a beloved person : darling —often used as a term of endearment (2) British —used as an informal term of address
4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent (see benevolent 1a) concern for the good of another: such as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others
b : a person’s adoration of God
5 : a god (such as Cupid or Eros) or personification of love
6 : an amorous episode : love affair
7 : the sexual embrace : copulation
8 : a score of zero (as in tennis)
9 capitalized, Christian Science : god

Definition of love

loved; loving
transitive verb
1 : to hold dear : cherish
2 a : to feel a lover’s passion, devotion, or tenderness for
b (1) : caress (2) : to fondle amorously (3) : to copulate with
3 : to like or desire actively : take pleasure in loved to play the violin
4 : to thrive in the rose loves sunlight
intransitive verb
: to feel affection or experience desire

Definition of love for English Language Learners
: a feeling of strong or constant affection for a person
: attraction that includes sexual desire : the strong affection felt by people who have a romantic relationship
: a person you love in a romantic way

Definition of love for English Language Learners
: to feel great affection for (someone) : to feel love for (someone)
: to feel sexual or romantic love for (someone)
: to like or desire (something) very much : to take great pleasure in (something)

Definition of love for Students

1 : strong and warm affection (as of a parent for a child)
2 : a great liking a love for reading
3 : a beloved person

Definition of love for Students

loved; loving
1 : to feel strong affection for He loves his family.
2 : to like very much She loves to ski.
— lover noun

---

Now I’m not sure any of these definitions quite fits the connotations I have for these words, but if I had to pick, I’d go with the following:

God — (capitalized) : the supreme or ultimate reality; a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people; a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions.

Life — a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings; spiritual existence transcending physical death; a specific phase of earthly existence adult life; an animating and shaping force or principle; spirit; the experience of being alive; all the experiences that make up the existence of a person; energy and spirit.

Love — strong and warm affection; warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion; unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another; a person’s adoration of God; to hold dear : cherish; to feel affection or experience desire.

You may disagree with these cherry-picked definitions; if so, fine. Just add your own definition or understanding that you feel better describes the word. I will say that obviously these three words describe three different things (which I still see as abstract words, sometimes nouns, sometimes verbs, depending on how they are used), but that’s kind of the point of the exercise: to examine what the commonalities are for these three terms and where they overlap. Personally, I think these words are far more evocative than a dictionary definition allows them, based on one’s experience, but if someone says I am not “internally consistent” with me terms, why then I hope to rectify that. Have at 'er.