God and the Problem Of Evil.

But spun another way, and you’ve basically justified ecumenicalism, which today is conventional wisdom. Most American Protestants for example have no problem changing denominations when they move from one city to another, the idea being that any presentation of God is an approximation at best and that the varietal of worship chosen should relate to the fit between the practitioner and the religious community, not theological minutia.

Not clear to me either. I’ve presented some mediocre evidence that Christianity was an improvement over paganism before (I cited the forward to a collection of Aesop’s fables). JS Mill thought it obvious that Christianity had a restraining influence on people and presented it as a potential downside of widespread atheism. I find subsequent developments puzzling: surely a professed belief in a cop with a 100% detection rate should have some behavioral effects.

Actually, Bertrand Russell pointed out that it’s stronger than objective evidence, as established by Descartes. I can’t say with 100.0000000000000000000% confidence that there’s a keyboard under my fingers, but I can say that I perceive one.

I’m a non-believer, or at the very least an apatheist. Suffering and pain happens because evolution invented those emotions to discourage us from engaging in (to whatever degree we can) behaviors that are detrimental to our survival. Biological organisms go against the grain of an entropic universe, they seek high energy states (from a chemistry POV), order and organization where the universe is compelled towards low energy states, disorder and universality (as an example, biological molecules tend to require external energy input to build and sustain themselves. That is why fossil fuels can be used to power civilization, they are the fossils of biological organisms from hundreds of millions of years ago. Carbon dioxide cannot power the machines of civilization but fossil fuels can). As a result many things can bring about disorder and damage to the various systems we depend on for life. Throw in the fact that there aren’t enough resources to go around and life is constantly competing to tear each other down for their own survival. Suffering is guaranteed.

I tend to think humans suffer more than most other animals (and probably all others) because we have so many layers of organization and complexity, which means more things to go wrong. We have advanced biological organization so we have physical pain (simpler biological organisms like viruses, single cells or insects do not feel pain). But we also have social organization, so we have social pain (shame, humiliation, isolation). Not only that but due to our advanced cognitive abilities we have enhanced abilities for psychic pain (rumination about the past, worrying about the future, confusion, despair, etc).

I know this debate is more about suffering and god, but I think attempts to explain suffering as being the result of a powerful, caring, interventionist god are doomed to fail because suffering wasn’t created by god. It was created by evolution. Could god have created evolution? I don’t know (deism). If it did, then god is amoral, and does not operate within our moral framework. In that case we should either ignore or be openly hostile to god the same way a colony of ants should be expected to be indifferent to or hostile to a condo development group.

The reason the question can’t be answered to meaningful satisfaction is that western definitions of god had nothing to do with why we are the way we are.

God is Omnipotent, meaning he has all power to do anything. Thus, he has ultimate power of definition. Thus, he can define this the best of all possible worlds, go take a nap, and be done with it ;).

ETA: Okay okay, in seriousness as an Atheist the best explanation I’ve ever been able to thumb-twiddle is the “Cosmic Debugger” argument. Essentially, God is in the process of making a perfect universe, and we’re just in a single iteration of that. A single instant to the guy altering the object that will become the final product, because experienced as a whole timeline to the people inside the thing.

Thing is, as often happens in such attempts to solve the POE that violates the “tri-omni” viewpoint of God that causes there to be a Problem of Evil in the first place. A tri-omni god would get it right the first time, could simply directly create the finished product, and would care enough about the suffering of the mortals involved not to inflict any on them.

An imaginary “cop” - or one who is indistinguishable from being imaginary - whose agenda can therefore be interpreted to be whatever the believer likes. Surely you’ve noticed how often God just happens to want whatever the believer in question wants. God isn’t going to show up to tell them otherwise after all.

So in practical terms it amounts to people being able to label their own prejudices and desires as the Will of God, making them less likely to behave morally, not more likely.

Perhaps “debugger” doesn’t quite get at what I mean. Consider the most perfect sculptor in the world, who can make the most magnificent sculptures no matter the tools or material.

Unfortunately, just due to the inherent properties of the medium he has to slowly whittle it down, the block of stone or clay slowly shapes itself into form. However, every stoke is perfect, no mistakes are ever made.

If you imagine the universe like that, i.e. a world with pain is a “single stroke of the chisel”, but it’s getting closer, in perfect, mistake free intervals to a universe with no unhappiness, which is the “sculpture”.

I suppose the standard objection is that omnipotence entails any power, which includes the ability to zap the universe into a state with no intermediate transitions that include pain, and I’d agree (unless you attack a Paradox Form 25-25 :D). Which is why I’m not a Christian.

That same video channel I linked above did a good one about how Christians would really act if they thought an omnipresent God who judges their every action were around.

If all are sinners then God created what he knew would be sinners, so that doesn’t add up. It does say, he either didn’t know ,or that he just liked evil to exist. I just cannot wrap my mind around saying that sort of God is all knowing, loving, etc.

If God is not of this universe, how could he show Moses his backside, so he must have a side, also he was supposed to talk to some certain people,but not others. There is too much contradiction for any of it to be claimed as truth. he must have got into this universe someway?

Butt-first, apparently.

We can prove that anything believed of God is from another human,Our belief is based on what we read, were taught,said or thought of some human, even our ownselves.

If God is in the process of making a perfect universe, then he didn’t know how to make one to begin with! That would mean he is no different than a human who keeps trying, until he can get something right!

That’s a good point. The criteria for “useful” may vary from person to person, so depending on your standards, subjective evidence may be useful to you.

Falsifiability comes from showing that the deductive process has utility. If the universe were not consistent, attempts at using deduction could fail. Since they don’t fail, we have extremely strong evidence that this universe follows logic.

I don’t accept a literal interpretation of the Bible, so reading it as a historical record looks silly to me.

The point of the stories in the Bible vary, and are subject to many interpretations among Christians who are not literalists. And I think off-topic to this thread.

There’s two things going on here and I’m only discussing one of them. First, there’s checking that a formal system is self-consistent and seeing what one can derive from it. Second, there’s finding evidence that a formal system is applicable to this universe.

For example, take Euclidean geometry. It’s a formal system that is self-consistent and one can derive many theorems with it. For a long time, it was our best model of the geometry of this universe. But as we took better measurements and performed better experiments, we’ve discovered that our universe does not actually follow Euclidean geometry. Sure, it’s a useful approximation, but ultimately it’s incorrect.

Not so with logic. We have not found any counterexamples. All the evidence points to a self-consistent universe that follows the rules of logic.

About “the basic rules of logic are true in all universes”–you do realize that this is a subjective statement for which no one can produce objective evidence for? We cannot produce evidence from any universe but this one.

Which is why most Christians do not use a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Is it your contention, then, that all visible manifestations of divine power in the Bible are actually metaphorical?

Moses imagined God offering him commandments? That there was no pillar of fire? There were no plagues? The sea didn’t actually part? The water turned into metaphorical wine rather than literal wine? That Jesus was actually wading around in the lake rather than walking across its surface? And so on?..

I’ve encountered literalists and non-literalists alike, but it seems a rare position (certainly outside of the mainstream) to assert that nothing miraculous enough to convince people of God’s existence happened in the Bible.

Most Christians believe what they want to believe and call the rest allegory. When something in the Bible previously believed to be fact is proven false to the believer that fact also becomes, not false, but allegory. The believe comes first, and any reality is filtered through that belief, tainting it-I don’t believe I have met anyone that examined the Bible for accuracy then decided to believe in the parts that passed muster.

No, my contention is that interpreting the Bible as if it is always literally true is wrong-headed.

I haven’t put much thought to whether these things are literally or metaphorically true, because the answers don’t really affect my faith.

You’ll find many non-literalists don’t really care if this or that Bible story is literally true. We’re more motivated by what we should being doing now to follow God’s will than determining the exact meaning of some part of the Bible.

No disagreement from me.

Among Christians, it’s only a minority that really harps about a literal interpretation, and that’s a reaction to mainstream Christianity (in the US, at least) being unconcerned about literal truth. Most Christians are more concerned about living life as good people, helping their communities, observing the milestones of the year and one’s life, etc.

It simply doesn’t matter if Jesus really walked on water or not. It’s not an essential part of their faith in God and the answer won’t change how they live their lives.

And how do you know what the will of God is?

Whenever I hear “No one can know the mind(or will) of God”, I can almost hear the words “…except me” added on.

Thank you for your response. I suppose I didn’t explain my intention but it seemed to me that the whole back-and-forth about Moses was introduced to question the validity of your apparent stance that belief in God must be based on faith and that proof of God’s existence would cause faith to become superfluous.

So the argument would go something like this: “God exercising divine power in Biblical events would offer certainty of His existence and diminish the quality of and need for faith among observers.”

I appreciate that you aren’t a literalist but find it odd to say that various truth claims pertinent to the Christian mythology are generally irrelevant. Are you telling me Christians would be (or ought to be) fine with the Pope- or whichever authority- issuing a statement saying that yeah, everything that purportedly happened post-crucifixion was made up and that Jesus probably just rotted in a ditch?

Or, more simply:
If none of the truth claims in the Bible need necessarily depict anything that actually happened, why do you choose to believe any of it? I’m not trying to be combative, but I certainly empathize with literalists who argue that you have to take it all or leave it all because, failing that, everyone gets to roll their own.

I’ve always struggled with this question, not because I see a contradiction, but precisely because I don’t and I have trouble seeing why other people struggle with it. The only real answer I’ve come to is that our concepts of what God is are vastly different. In the same way that some people think that creation was a single event and see arguments of evolution as contradicting the nature of God, I think people who see God as perfect and all loving also see the existence of suffering as a contradiction in the same way. Both are views of God as unchanging being threatened by processes of change.

If, for the sake of argument, we assume that God exists, then we draw about him, simply by the nature of the universe, that he works through process. That creation, and all parts of it, are changing is not a condemnation of God as imperfect, it is only a change in our own perspective of God. For example, recall a place you visited often as a child but then didn’t see again for many years. When you do, your first thought is that everything is smaller than you remember it, not that it has remained unchanged and you’ve grown. In this same way, we change through evolution, science, philosophy, culture, and so our understanding of God changes directly as a consequence. So so that we see him as different through our own process, it doesn’t really say anything either way about whether God remains unchanging or not, only that we perceive that he does.

So what does this have to do with suffering? One of our greatest limitations in this perspective is that we experience creation temporally, whereas creation isn’t simply all space but all time as well. Evaluating the current state in time is only a single slice is like judging a film from a single frame. In that frame we might see apparent compositional errors as relavent to that frame, but in the context of it’s scene and the film as a whole, those sorts of errors may, in fact, be necessary to creating a larger arcing effect to the impact of the film. And this is how we see suffering, we only see it in the momentary context.

Or consider in a more relevant context, evolution. We may see a species go extinct and see it as somehow cruel, but it is merely a consequence of how evolution works, and that the best adapted will survive. Where evolution operates on the genetic level, our choices of how we treat eachother, how we spend our lives, is the direct cause of all of our suffering. And over time, as we experience and witness the suffering, it is our cause to choose to behave in more moral ways. In that way, to say that free will is at fault is as much to blame genetic mutation for creating a maladapted species; free will is our process of change to pursue the goal of relieving suffering.

And, in that same way, suffering itself isn’t even a bad thing any more than pain is bad. Though pain is certainly unpleasant, to call it bad is to ignore that it informs us of injuries and provides incentive against acting recklessly. For those few unfortunate enough to not be able to feel pain, it actually poses serious threats to their health constantly. Suffering is much like pain if all of mankind, or perhaps on a larger scope of all life, could experience it on such a high level. And so, it is only part of that pursuit of that process.

And so, we can see that, over time, it is part of our process of growing and learning. And, unknowing where the endpoint is, we cannot say for certain, but we can certainly say that over a long enough timeline, we will only get more and more toward that state. And so to judge all of creation in that context, suffering is not only an integral part, but it’s part of what makes the whole good.