God, death and dinosaurs - is my theology right here?

[Wallenstein]

I’ve been invited to a meeting this Friday at my local church to discuss “Science and the Bible”.

The main speaker is a professor of geophysics at University of Cambridge who is also christian - he’s head of a movement to improve dialogue between religion and science in the UK.

Aside from the more metaphysical problems with assuming that science and religion can share the same language, there’s a particular aspect of christian theology that grates against my understanding of evolution etc.

The problem is this:

1. The bible says that God created a perfect world.

2. Death and decay were not part of this perfect world.

3. Death only entered the world as a direct result of human agency (ie. sin).

4. Therefore, without human sin there would be no death.

5. If follows, then, that before humans existed nothing could have died.

6. But biologists are sure that animals of all kinds lived and died long before humans existed.
   Challenges:

For each of the above statements there’s an alterative…

1a) God did not create a perfect world

2a) The existence of death does not mean the world was not perfect

3a) Death is not a result of human sin

4a) Death could have entered the world without human agency

5a) Plenty of things lived and died before humans arrived

6a) The world was created in 7 days and for 6 days there was no death, until Adam and Eve misbehaved.
The church in our village is not fundamentalist - in the sense that most members accept that Genesis is a metaphorical explanation for the creation of the world and that the modern account of the development of life is near to what actually happened.

However, they also argue that the Resurrection was a real, actual event - indeed, it has to be the defeat of physical death (not just moral, spiritual or symbolic) in order to mean anything.

So where have I gone wrong?

My questions are:

Q1) Does the bible actually claim that death is a direct result of human sin, and that death has no place in a perfect creation?

Q2) Does the bible allow the view that the Fall only brought death to humans, and that other animals / plants could have been subject to death and injury prior to our arrival?

Q3) Is there any biblically consistent way to resolve this problem?

This church is an intelligent, bible-based evangelical congregation, so supporting bible quotes from those who know the Good Book would be really useful.

I’m not trying to score points at this meeting - it’s genuinely an issue that’s troubled me and I’ve never had a satisfactory answer to it.

[Wallenstein]

This site - http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/deathsin.html - sets out the argument from the Creationist position (not one I share, but it asks the same questions).

What I’d like is a liberal Christian interpretation of this, if one exists!

[Tevildo]

It’s very difficult, if not self-contradictory, to base any liberal Christian viewpoint directly on the Bible. The liberal Christian view would be that the history of the Earth and animal life developed in accordance with the scientific/evolutionary model, that death and carnivory existed for billions of years before humanity came on the scene, and are an intrinsic part of the natural order. On your “objections”, a liberal Christian (such as myself) would answer “Yes” to 2a, 3a, 4a, 5a and 6a.

To answer your specific questions:

1. No. The Bible quite clearly states the opposite, that Adam and Eve were mortal even before the Fall. Genesis 3:22 - “… and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.” And, for that matter, Genesis 3:19 - “Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”.

2. The Bible allows any point of view you like, depending on interpretation. No specific claim is made one way or the other on animal mortality in the unfallen world, although Genesis 1:30, interpreted fairly literally, claims that all animals (including humans) were herbivourous on the last day of Creation. They may have been subject to death, but they wouldn’t have killed each other for food.

3. I’m not sure what you mean by “Biblically consistent”. If the “problem” is the mortality of humanity, Gen 3:19 and 3:22 are your answers. If the “problem” is based on the assumption “Death is evil”, a little more work will be needed.

[Wallenstein]

Thanks for that reply - really helpful, and much appreciated.

I guess the part that gets me is summed up in this quote from G. Richard Bozarth (mentioned on the site I linked to)…

“It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus’ life and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam’s fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None.”

If not death, what exactly are we being saved from?

[Tevildo]

@e-logic

If not death, what exactly are we being saved from?

Hell, damnation, being cast out of God’s presence because of our sin.

This brings us on to questions about the Last Judgement and the end of the world, and what happens to our souls between our (bodily) deaths and the Last Day. Opinion is divided on the details; some churches make a distinction between the “temporary death” (the death of our bodies). which everyone is subject to, and the “permanent death” (the death of our souls), which only the damned/non-elect/unjustifed are subject to after the Last Judgement - it is this death, the one which is eternal, that Christ saves us from.

[Tevildo]

Another point:

Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed?

Answer - the sinful. It’s important to distinguish between the doctrine of Original Sin - the idea that everyone, no matter what good deeds they may do, is irretreivably damned because of the Fall of Adam, and the simple observation that everyone is, in fact, sinful. Original Sin is a response to someone who might say “I’ve been good all my life, I’ve not violated any of the 10 Commandments, I should be entitled to get into Heaven on my own merits without needing to be saved by God’s grace.” In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), Jesus points out that nobody can honestly make this claim; the doctrine of Original Sin states that, even if someone could honestly make this claim, they would still be damned, not because of anything they did, but because of Adam.

I don’t personally believe that Original Sin is necessary to establish the point that everyone is in need of redemption - a quick look at the newspapers and the world around us is evidence enough.

[monavis]

I do not see any mention of a death of the soul ( in Genesis)because of Eve, or Adam’s sin.
The bibles I have read said “now that you know good from evil you must die”. To my knowledge there was no mention of a heaven or a hell.

I think the idea of a soul might have come about when some one was unconscious then came to;people thought they had come to life and so felt they had a soul. However many good people died so that seemed to be just. The word soul came from the Latin Anima which means life.(at least that is what I had read.

Monavis

[Tevildo]

@monavis

I do not see any mention of a death of the soul ( in Genesis)because of Eve, or Adam’s sin.

Yes, as I understand it, the idea of Original Sin is an exclusively Christian position (based mainly on Romans 5:12-19) - it’s not found anywhere in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).

[FriarTed]

@Tevildo

Yes, as I understand it, the idea of Original Sin is an exclusively Christian position (based mainly on Romans 5:12-19) - it’s not found anywhere in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).

Jewish thought is that everyone has both a good inclination & an evil one. The one OT passage that seems to support some form of innate sin is Psalm 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I am an Old-Earth Creationist- death was a natural part of all creation BUT Adam & Eve were to transcend that by entrusting themselves to God to the point they could partake of the Tree of Life, which would keep them from decay & death. When they sinned, they lost that access to the Tree of Life for themselves & their descendants. We are restored through the very real redeeming death & bodily resurrection of Jesus.

[Tevildo]

@FriarTed

Jewish thought is that everyone has both a good inclination & an evil one. The one OT passage that seems to support some form of innate sin is Psalm 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I am an Old-Earth Creationist- death was a natural part of all creation BUT Adam & Eve were to transcend that by entrusting themselves to God to the point they could partake of the Tree of Life, which would keep them from decay & death. When they sinned, they lost that access to the Tree of Life for themselves & their descendants. We are restored through the very real redeeming death & bodily resurrection of Jesus.

That’s a good point. Another distinction to be made, between Original Sin as a specific doctrine, and “innate sin”. Any Christian who believes in the Fall, whether it’s a literal or metaphorical belief, accepts that humanity today is more sinful than God intended us to be - that Adam brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12). (Interesting that it’s always Adam that’s blamed, rather than Eve - a rare case of Biblical/Pauline misogyny being reversed, or just a more subtle example of it? But I digress).

FriarTed’s view, that Adam (and Eve) lost their entitlement to the Tree of Life after by disobeying God’s command is a very good one. They were intrinsically mortal, but, had they not sinned, they could have extended their lives as long as they wanted to (not necessarily for ever, but potentially for ever). With the Fall, they no longer had this option; they became enslaved to their natures, and forced to die. I don’t feel, however, that this implies that death itself is evil; as is being discussed in another thread, would being forced to live forever be that much better?

[zagloba]

@Telvido

1. No. The Bible quite clearly states the opposite, that Adam and Eve were mortal even before the Fall. Genesis 3:22 - “… and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.” And, for that matter, Genesis 3:19 - “Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”.

Your reasoning here is faulty. The Fall occurs in 3:6, when they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[Tevildo]

@zagloba

Your reasoning here is faulty. The Fall occurs in 3:6, when they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I would repeat FriarTed’s point. For Adam and Eve to live forever, they would have to eat of the Tree of Life, implying that, if they didn’t do so, they would naturally die. The Fall cut them off from the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:24) - it did not change immortal humans into mortals.