And kids discuss it at school. Constantly. But deep discussions of sexuality are not part of the formal curriculum of work and should not IMO be part of the formal curriculum at school. I realizee the analogy is not exact and can easily be stretched to the breaking point, but it’s still useful IMO. In my rather Victorian world view, that stuff is personal. Note that this makes me naturally tolerant of homosexuality rather than otherwise, because when I say that I really don’t care who you (general “you”) are sleeping with because it’s none o’ my business, I really mean it. Unlike certain unnamed fundies like HATES2SPELL whose fixation on the subject reflects an IMO unseemly interest in the private lives of others. This is not to say that I think it is wrong to talk to kids about homosexuality, but in my world that would be done in the context of discussing the importance of tolerance and it would be age-appropriate. I don’t think this was age-appropriate – the topic was too complicated and delicate, and the kids (at least some of them) were too young. You may disagree and that’s fine. It is also – again – the best argument for letting each of us raise our kids as we see fit, without having our attempts to do so overtaken by the government in the form of public schools.
Well, there is an excellent rant in the idea that the abandonment of public schools will result in the death of American democracy, but I’ll let someone else write that OP.
Gomez, I don’t think I need to be informed if my daughter is going to hear a speaker on gun safety, or learn about the second amendment. I also don’t think the school should require my consent.
Actually FIRING a gun, though? I think you know that this is stretching an analogy to an absurd degree. Teaching kids not to call other kids faggots, or telling them that it’s ok to be gay does not have the potential to KILL anybody.
LOL 
KIRKLAND, I appreciate your apology, but I have to tell you that when you get, ah, let’s call it “wound up” like that, you strike me as the cyberspace equivalent of a frothing-at-the-mouth crazy man screaming insults at strangers on the street. I say that not to insult you but so you understand that when you do that, it is not within my power to take you seriously. And when you do that, I stop reading what you post, just like I walk away from the crazy street person. Please don’t construe this is my being “holier than thou” or presuming to administer a spanking – God knows I’ve lost my temper spectacularly on this Board, and said some things I’ve either been ashamed of, or been forced to eat, or both. But please ask yourself is you do any service to the cause you believe in when the immediate effect of your having weighed in on the issue is that people stop listening to you.
One of the things I have learned here – though I have to continue to re-learn it each time I lose my temper – is that the value of maintaining a thin veneer of civilization, even if you cling to it only by your fingernails, is that people are less likely to run away from you. And then you can more easily cut them off at the knees as they so richly deserve. 
For what it’s worth, which probably isn’t much. Feel free to disregard. But your apology was very well done, and I thank you for it.
Kirk, the means do not justify the ends. Whenever a person is making inroads on something controversial, they need to be squeaky-clean in their methods so that stuff like this doesn’t happen. If the teacher had followed procedure, we probably wouldn’t be talking about this right now.
It disturbs me that you are apparently willing to trample on every right in existance so that gay teens won’t kill themselves. I am against gay teens killing themselves. However, the support and resources to persuade gay teens from killing themselves can be put in place without ignoring the rules and trampling the rights that we do have. You do realize this kind of thing is liable to bite you in the butt, right? The closest parallel I can think of is pedophilia, ala NAMBLA. (This is a parallel only in that it involves a sexuality that is outside the norm, so don’t flame me.) If the schools are allowed to teach children that homosexuality is right and normal without informing the parents of this decision, then why not pedophilia? I’m constructing a slippery slope argument, in case you didn’t notice. I’m not making any judgement about homosexuality; the “slippery slope” in this case is people doing things without even attempting to go through normal channels or inform anyone of what they’re doing.
And allow me to clarify what I hope would be obvious. GOBEAR, when I talk about disliking discussions of sexuality, that does NOT include things like “my boyfriend and I are going to the movies.” That’s no more a sexual statement from a gay person than it would be from a straight person, and people who construe it as such are idiots.
But of course they nevertheless exist, in alarming numbers.
What rights am I advocating be trampled? Parents have no right to dictate or control the factual content of classes in public schools. People have no right to stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and pretend homosexuality doesn’t exist. And no one has any right to make gay teens feel hated.
Then you must be for immersive education that drones into kids that there’s nothing wrong with being gay.
Obviously the rules for the district should be observed.
What a load of bullshit. Pedophilia is NOT a sexuality, it is NOT an orientation, it is the rape of a child by an adult. I get really damn sick of people connecting the two. I left the Catholic Church over this bullshit, and here it is again.
Pedophilia is rape – it is based on an unequal distribution of power in the relationship. Pedophilia involves an adult taking advantage and using a child. That is not the case in gay relationships between those of similar ages. Pedophilia is a major criminal act. It is not a crime to be gay.
Also, I don’t want schools saying “it’s right to be gay,” only “it’s not wrong to be gay.” Homosexuality isn’t right or wrong, it is, like all human conditions of existence, morally neutral. Like being right-handed or left-handed, blue-eyed or brown-eyed, etc.
Homosexuality is also not an action, but a condition, a state of being. Pedophilia is an action, and a criminal one at that.
Totally different, totally uncomparable.
Kirk
Actually pedophiles are not always child molestors. Doesn’t make it any less creepy, but there you go.
Who said anything about approval of those words?
Oh, thats right, you, in your prissy little tirade. Kids are going to use swear words and act out regardless of what they’re told. I don’t know any parents or teachers who actively allow or permit their children to swear. But gosh darnit, kids do it anyway, don’t they? This is not tacit approval, its a statement of fact.
Yes, if adults are using a word in a descriptive, positive manner then it is okay for them to use it. So what do you tell your children then?
“Mom, that man just called that other man a fag and he doesn’t mind.”
“Oh well, sorry son, you can’t use that word.”
“Why not, he did?”
“Well, you’re not gay son.”
“Huh?”
Is it a slur or is it descriptive, like “gay”? Has the gay community co-opted it or not? You can’t call your gay friend a flaming faggot with a chuckle in one breath then scream with righteous indignation the next when some hetero does the same. Context is irrelevant, words have power and meaning.
Ya know what?
I wish as much passion were expended on educating children on mental illness, and eradicating the biases there. Very, very prevalent. Sky high suicide rate. Sky high substance abuse rate. Alienation. Brutal treatment from peers. The misconception that all people with mental illnesses are “crazy.”
I’m sorry, but don’t try to tell me I don’t know about stigma.
I’m a firm believer in compassion, and it’s the most important lesson we teach our children, but it needs to be spread a little more evenly across the board.
It sucks ass what gay kids have to go through, but what I had to go through sucked ass too, and what my son endures now is certainly just as bad.
Being embittered solves nothing.
I’m not trying to fan any flames here, but remember, As serious as your issues are, and no ones disputing that, other people, and other children, have their burdens as well. Gays haven’t cornered the market on misery or alienation.
Maybe THAT’s why I got so defensive. I’m going to have to think about that.
Witch said:
I could not agree with you more!!!
Yes, but that’s that thread. This is this thread.
For a tiny portion of the population. Pardon me if I don’t think it is one of the more important issues facing teens in the United States.
Marc
I think a major reason why some of us on the tastefully decorated side of the fence are getting upset is the qualitative difference in opinion on how gay issues should be treated versus racial or religious issues. Tolerance for African-Americans or Native Americans or Muslims or Jews is taken as not even requiring permission or consent or even the need to inform parents that such will be done. But tolerance for gays (if done with context, i.e. what being gay means) is seen as sexual and therefore requires all kinds of layers of ass-covering to be done. It’s a result of the completely fucked-up society we Americans live in. Sex is bad. Sex is worse than violence. We can see four murders a night on television in technicolor detail but sex must be by innuendo or suggestion only (with a few exceptions).
Y’know what? I knew I was gay when I was five years old. Ron Ely’s Tarzan in his skimpy loincloth on Saturday afternoons used to make me feel all funny down there. I knew! I spent the next 13 years denying it, while masturbating to fantasies of my male classmates just about every night from the age of 9. When I finally stopped denying it at 18, I spent months agonizing over it and the reactions of my parents and peers. I considered suicide. I considered self-mutilation (“If I cut it off, I won’t have the feelings anymore”). I considered the seminary, so at least I’d have an escape from the expectation that I’d get married to a nice girl and have children. The idea that children as young as 11 don’t have sexual feelings, and especially don’t have gay sexual feelings, is about as out of touch with reality as one can get. And the idea that a program of letting kids know that, despite their parents’ prejudices, it’s okay to be gay, is bad or controversial is so far beyond my understanding here that it boggles my mind.
No one is demanding parental consent in order to teach tolerance of people with mental illnesses. No one says that mental illness is a “sin.” No one thinks that mental illness is going to rub off on their kids.
Well, we talked about condoms and birth control in 4th grade and no parents got all upset over it. In my 9th grade health class a guest speaker showed us how to properly use a dental dam, among other things. Still, no parents. And I live in Little Conservative Town, WV.
I daresay that no parents would get upset if a group talked to middle-schooler’s about tolerance toward gays. They could certainly use it! And everyone knows about GLBT people by middle school. This might be due to the fact that there are a lot of openly bisexual and gay kids in middle school. And there’s a local garbageman who likes to dress up in fabulous women’s clothing when he goes to Kroger’s.
Also, as far as I can remember, there were never permission slips for any speakers (only for fieldtrips). Students could choose whether to watch a speaker. However, they had to sit out one recess. So maybe my town is just lazy. They only get upset when the football team loses.
Whoops, I should have clarified that there were (and are) a lot of openly BLG in my middle school. Same goes for high school.
**
There’s that word, tolerance. I would argue that we have not been teaching students to tolerate black people, native americans, or jews. We’ve been teaching students to accept them as being equals. Maybe I’m picking nits but I don’t like how toleration has come to mean acceptance. For the record I support acceptence, not toleration, of homosexuals.
**
I knew I liked girls when I was five. Sure, they were a bit icky but I didn’t mind kissing them once in a while I just didn’t want anyone to witness it. My neices (6 and 8) are aware that gay people exist. I don’t think it is unreasonable to explain to young children that gay people exist. It certainly beats ignoring the issue.
Marc
Youre right** matt**, it is a subject for a different thread. but I would hope you can see the parallels I am alluding to.
Dio…my turn to educate you. Up until not too long ago(and still in some backwaters) mental illness was atributed to demonic possesesion. Even now some people believe you’re afflicted to pay for some horrible sin you’ve commited.
And your statement about people not worrying about it “rubbing off” made me laugh out loud. Is that what you really think? Well, let me tell you, I’ve had adults, people I thought were my friends, suddenly “disappear” when I reveal I’m bipolar. If they don’t literally think I’m contagious, they sure ACT like I am.
And the shit my son endures is TEN TIMES WORSE. He’s the only kid he knows that has to take a bizillion pills a day and see two docs a week, and miss alot of school due to his reoccuring mania. It’s adversely affecting his education and every facet of his life.
Frankly, after all that’s gone on and been said in this thread, the fact that you even typed that out and hit reply astounds me.
Nope, no-one’s demanding parental consent to teach tolerance for the mentally ill, for one simple reason.
It’s
not
being
taught.
count your blessings.
you could be mentally ill.
Well Dio…here’s where I can educate YOU a bit. Some people DO think mental illness is a sin. or your being punished for some sin you’ve commited.