Eidolon, I am not in a position to criticize, but I think you truly need to rethink, very carefully, how much you really know about your students – because it seems to me quite clear that you think that you know them far better than you actually do.
Is somebody “gay” because they come out and make a public hoohah about their sexuality? You don’t think that any of your kids are secretly attracted to other kids, of the same or other sex, and not about to tell their teacher about it or make it at all obvious? You don’t think that any of your kids are hurt by the insults that you apparently don’t think are worth criticizing? For the sake of your kids, either develop more empathy for them, take a refresher course in late-childhood or early-adolescent psychology from someone who’s been involved in recent research and contact with real kids, or at minimum try saying every morning, “I don’t know what’s going on in my kids’ minds and hearts.”
Or you may wake up one morning to find out that a ninth grader you taught three years previously has suicided. Or pulled a Columbine at the local high school. And I honestly don’t want to be any part of the guilt you’ll feel then. That’s why I’m stressing this to you today.
I would’ve loved to hear this presentation when I was eleven. Eleven (my grade 7 year) was just about the time I was figuring myself out, and that the word “fag” applied to me.
From grade 7 to 10, I went through four years of sex education without the word “gay” or “homosexuality” being used. My only information on the subject came from the things people said at school, which (to understate) were less than flattering.
A presentation like this might have saved me a good 5 years of being suicidal and trying to change myself.
And while we’re working on education students about tolerance, let’s not forget teachers, too. I encountered more than a few bigots in the school system after I came out in grade 11.
Is it ingnorant and intolerant to not want the government to teach my child about complex sexual issues like GLBT at 11 years old with out my knowledge?
Is it wrong to think that kids that age would benefit more from a general respect/tolerance program then one specifically geared towards a small group?
Do you believe that any person who doesn’t want their children to learn about GLBT in 6th grade without their knowledge is going to teach their children hate?
What age do you think is too young to have a specific GLBT presentation? Is it appropriate for 3rd graders?
Intolerance is as intolerance does, I reckon. You’re certainly not very tolerant of dissent from your view.
No two people are treated the same by any other two people, let alone whole groups. And no one has a right to any treatment, in my opinion, other than to be free from uninvited force and fraud.
Kids pick on other kids for countless reasons: they’re too fat, too skinny, too pimply, too pretty, too ugly, too poor, too rich, and yadda yadda yadda.
The problem is in the picking, not the reason. Even if you were to have your way and somehow forever end even one child from being picked on for his homosexuality, do not be so naive as to think he won’t be picked on because he wears a red shirt. Or a blue one. Or a white one.
You seem to be under the erroneous impression that I tolerate insults in my classroom or anywhere within earshot. This is simply not the case. The fact remains that kids insult each other and of course they are going to be hurt by it. But no more than being constantly called a dildo, an asshole, a motherfucker or a fag.
You can preach tolerance all you want, on any issue, there will always be bullies. When an adolescent calls someone a fag, they aren’t doing so because they believe that person is gay. No more than when they call someone a motherfucker do they believe that individuals has sex with their mom.
You know, it’s funny watching a libertarian defend censorship.
Anyway, Lib said:
But having a guest speaker at the school could prevent a gay kid from being thrown out of his family. And could give them a resource to turn to for information about their sexuality, instead of having them believe the ignorance and bigorty they’re exposed to daily. And may prevent them from committing suicide. There’s a difference between gay kids’ experiences at public schools, and straight kids’. And the difference is such that a staggeringly disproportionate number of gay kids are committing suicide. So, what information is so dangerous that it’s worth kids’ lives?
And no, I’m not very tolerant of being told I’m a second-class citizen. You know what that makes me? A human being.
And In Conceivable, “Let me get this straight…” That’s pretty funny, in this context.
Is it ingnorant and intolerant to not want the government to teach my child about complex sexual issues like GLBT at 11 years old with out my knowledge?*
If that rules out presentations like this one, where the complex issues involved in being gay, lesbian, transgendered or bisexual are simplified down to “Be tolerant, they’re human beings too,” and “If you’re having trouble with your sexuality, there are lots of resources out there. You’re not alone,” then yeah. Sorry.
Is it wrong to think that kids that age would benefit more from a general respect/tolerance program then one specifically geared towards a small group?*
Such programs are already in place. The disproportionate amount of hatred directed at gay people by kids in that age group indicates that they’re not working well in this regard, and that supplementary programs by professionals trained in educating kids on these issues are appropriate.
Do you believe that any person who doesn’t want their children to learn about GLBT in 6th grade without their knowledge is going to teach their children hate?*
Hatred is being taught to their children every day, in schools, on television, in playgrounds and churches and homes. If you do nothing to educate your child about these issues, then you’re allowing the ignorance that can foster hate to go unopposed. So, yeah. Sorry.
What age do you think is too young to have a specific GLBT presentation? Is it appropriate for 3rd graders?
I had my first crush on a boy when I was eleven, so I would say that junior high is pretty good, though maybe the subject could be broached in fifth or sixth grades.
One in twenty of our kids, at least, is dealing with this issue, and the vast majority of them are dealing with them alone, in a culture that despises them. If ever a situation called for education, this is it.
But when an adolescent calls someone a fag, and twenty kids hear him do so, someone in that group of kids is gay. That kid is hearing that being gay is so bad, it’s on a par with fucking your mother.
What’s so wrong about the schools in which this is happening, constantly, present that kid with an alternative perspective, something that suggests that gay people are just as human as anybody else?
When I read things like this, where people start to proclaim how they should have control over the upbringing of other peoples children, I start to understand just how militias get formed.
Surely to god this is the parents responsibility, pure and simple. You may disagree with them, but unless they are doing something that is clearly harmful to the child why should you or society have any right to tell them they’re wrong?
I certainly didn’t mean it that way…but I guess it is pretty funny now that I think about it.
Thanks for answering my questions. I respect your opinions but I do not agree with some of them. Just a couple of small points.
I am unaware of any school program that teachs general tolerance and respect. There weren’t any when I was in school.
Also, not wanting the school to teach your child something is not the same as ignoring the issue and allowing them to learn hate. There are several issues that I don’t want the school to teach my child but I am not going to ignore either. Two big examples are sex and religion.
If the child is gay, then they’re doing something harmful to him by bringing him up in ignorance of the facts about his own sexuality. So, they’re wrong.
If the child is not gay, then what’s the harm in learning actual facts about gay people, instead of the bullshit they learn from their peers?
You’re going to have to convince me that whatever information was taught at that seminar is so dangerous, it’s worth the life of a child to make sure that no children hear it.
It is highly unlikely that any of your students are actually having, or will, at some point in the future, have, sex with their mother. It goes without saying that none of your students are literally anal sphincters, nor are any of them marital aids.
However, some of your students are, or will identify in the future as, homosexuals. That’s why “fag” is a different sort of insult, with much greater potential for harm, than motherfucker, asshole, or dildo.
Just because the insult isn’t meant literaly doesn’t mean it doesn’t demean GLBT people to have their sexual orientation used as an insult.
Bullshit. You’re going to have to convince me that parents don’t have more rights to monitor what guest speakers are saying to them than you do.
There’s a flipside to your argument, one that’s been mentioned several times and not answered. What happens when the guest speaker is a fundamentalist, there to tell children they’re going to hell if they’re gay. Or a racist, there to tell them blacks are inferior. Just whose role is it to decide what information, experiences and viewpoints children should be given, and at what ages.
If the teacher said the same things as the guest speaker as part of his regular class, would there be any uproar? If so, then you’ve exposed your bigotry. What difference does it make whether it comes from the teacher or an expert guest speaker?
Yes Homebrew. I would have the same problem. No bigotry there.
However, there are rules at the school about who/how/why guest speakers are allowed. If the teacher broke those rules then the punishment should be the same no matter what the guest speaker was presenting.
As a parent living in the town where this happened, I find this alarming. Not because of the subject matter. But because of the attitude that ONE TEACHER has better idea of what, how, and when my child should be taught. And that teacher doesn’t need ANYONE’S permission, oversight, or advice. Not the principal’s, the parents’. How arrogant!
Maybe I want to talk to my child about the subject matter first to give an introduction or relate how the issue affects our lives. Maybe I want to be assured that the subject matter will be presented in an age appropriate way. Maybe I want to discuss how grandma feels on the issue.
The point is that there is a reason parents are routinely notified before presentations.
One teacher doesn’t have the right to decide what is important and secretively teach the children about it. Just think where this could lead.
Maybe you approve of what this teacher taught. But what if she isn’t disciplined and other teachers think this behavior is okay. They set up secret presentations about the ‘fallacy of evolution’ or ‘why astrology holds all the answers.’
I’m curious to know, and perhaps this is down to diffferences in international teaching, but what class would this have been part of the curriculum for?
Perhaps Health class. Or maybe even Social Studies as a topic of current news, related to the murder of Gwen Araujo. Maybe even PE as related to former NFL player Esera Tuaolo coming out. Should I brainstorm more for you?
If you like, but we don’t have the equivalent of health class, social studies is an elective you can’t really pick till 14/15, and it certianly is not part of any PE curriculum I’ve heard of.
Basically, I just don’t like the idea of some state defined good citizen course. Far too orwellian - here are the morals you should have, and will be taught.
Is it really so strange, to think that moral upbringing is the parents responsibility? And if it is the parents responsibility, shouldn’t they be consulted before such a lecture.
Nobody thinks we need parental permission to educate children about racial equality, or to teach them that racist language and behavior will not be tolerated in school.
Why do we need permission to teach them that GLBT harrassment is unacceptable? I don’t know what Mr. Garrison-like fantasy you people have about teachers enacting graphic demonstrations, but get this through you skulls, there is nothing sexual about teaching tolerance. Children are in school to be educated. Educating means eliminating ignorance (isn’t that what we’re all supposed to be for?). Bigotry is ignorance.
Anti-gay slurs are commonplace in schools, especially among young boys. Is that ok if they don’t know what it means? (which I don’t really buy, btw, I worked with second graders who knew what it meant). Isn’t it the job of educators to tell kids that these attitudes are unacceptable, and to explain WHY they’re unacceptable?
Comparing the teaching of this kind of tolerance to showing them child porn is obvious straw-man bullshit. It’s a complete non-sequitor.
The Phelps analogy is equally ridiculous. It’s akin to objecting to racial equality education on the grounds that it would open the door to teachers bringing in KKK speakers. It’s an absolute non-starter.
Not every parental attitude, and for that matter, not every parent is deserving of equal respect.
