[QUOTE=lekatt]
Now if a person dies and then comes back but doesn’t remember anything, I asked them if their life has changed, do they feel differently about things than before. So far all have said yes their life has changed. This is a characteristic of a near death experience.
[/QUOTE]
I imagine, were you to ask someone who had a heart attack but didn’t die at any point, that they too would feel changed by the event and see things differently. That’s what major events do to you. It’s not necessarily because they’ve had an NDE they can’t remember. Though your analogy that dreams in which we create a fictionalised scenario and NDEs is an interesting one.
I’ll ask what I asked last time this got brought up; You say scientists have evidence that the mind lives on after death. How long for?
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
When you are young and your life experiences are at their lowest levels ,you are introduced to religion. It is done by your parents who you rely upon for life and who love you. It is nearly impossible to mentally fight when you are young. The religions have had 2000 years of tinkering to find ways to sell their message. You are just a kid. You believe and trust.
For some as you get older the teachings show a fatal lack of proof and logic. Critical questions are answered by you must have faith. For many that is enough. For some not only is it not enough but you get pissed for being subjected to all that propaganda when you are most vulnerable to it. The calming feeling of a god and life after death are suddenly wreched from your psyche. The existential angst of facing your belief system crumbling before your eyes is not easy. You are faced with the reality that your parents,schools and much of the society have been lying to you. On another level you have to find a reason to do the right thing in life because your framework has been destroyed. It requires a lot of thinking and self inspection. But if you emerge with a stance that following laws and doing the right is correct. ,you have to replace the religion with a personal philosophy to guide you. When you don’t do the proper thing you can not make it go away by confession. You own it. Being an atheist is not an escape from rules but a step into responsibility that you can not escape. and don’t want to.
You do not choose to become an atheist. For many you have no choice.
[/QUOTE]
I can relate to what you say, I want down that path. I still don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. I was an agnostic when I had a near death experience. Atheistism to me was just the flip side of religion.
My near death experience was like an earthquake to my beliefs; shaking, crumbling them to dust. I would never be the same again, the experience changed my perception of life forever. I had to rebuild my beliefs based on what I experienced and try to integrate them with my physical life. It took a long time, over three years, before I felt comfortable just being myself and interacting with people who hadn’t had a near death experience. That’s why there are support groups for NDEers.
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans]
I have no chance with you.
[/quote]
This is “humility”? Sounds to me a lot more like dismissive arrogance. Isn’t it interesting that part of your particular religion seems to involve a self-sealing defense against skepticism? If I’m interpreting this and other statements you’ve made correctly, you are one of the sort of believers who believe that only God can actually truly convert someone. But in that case, you have a belief system completely immune to skepticism: it’s pure confirmation bias. The only people you ever really have to deal with in any serious way are those that already believe. And you have a ready made explanation as to why other people would be unconvinced.
So, in other words, once I spend enough time believing that God exists, I’ll believe he does? I don’t doubt that it would, but what is that supposed to demonstrate exactly? This response really hurts your case that you are doing anything other than overinterpreting some very vague and subjective mental phenomenon.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
So, to receive evidence that God exists, I have to first believe that he exists?
[/QUOTE]
I am only one soul. My guess, however, is that every soul that exists knows at some level that God exists. When one stands one’s self up against the rest of creation, it would, I should think, be natural to get a sense that one is very weak and puny. Therefore, it makes sense that one would want to take a humble attitude and call out in a sincere, heart-felt way for some guidance and understanding to help one along in this strange and often difficult journey called life. And who better to call out to for help than God Himself?
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
If god existed he ,she or it would be capable of providing proof and surely would.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, I have my doubts as to whether even God could prove the existence of God (except by reaching directly into your mind and tweaking your belief-system, but that would be brainwashing, not proof). It’s the “Satan problem.” Suppose you see a bush burning with fire that does not consume it, and a voice comes out saying, “I am God!” It’s clearly something out of the ordinary, but how do you know it’s God? It could be Satan or a demon. It could be an elf or a djinn or a wizard. It could be a petty godling who has power over all the Earth but not all the Universe. It could be an extraterrestrial sentient being, no more supernatural than yourself, with advanced special-effects technology and a wicked sense of humor.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I imagine, were you to ask someone who had a heart attack but didn’t die at any point, that they too would feel changed by the event and see things differently. That’s what major events do to you. It’s not necessarily because they’ve had an NDE they can’t remember. Though your analogy that dreams in which we create a fictionalised scenario and NDEs is an interesting one.
I’ll ask what I asked last time this got brought up; You say scientists have evidence that the mind lives on after death. How long for?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, people are changed by major trauma, but not like near death experiencers.
Near death experiences, almost always, causes profound personality and life style changes in the experiencer. Some NDE experiencers go back to school to become teachers or counselors. Some lecture, write books. Others do volunteer work at Hospices, Nursing Homes and Hospitals. Some open “Centers of Learning” or start classes/support groups. Even those who don’t “go public” with their experience are “changed” into kinder and more loving individuals. The impact of the experience is “to change the experiencer” and the “change” lasts a lifetime.
I started a web site, that has helped hundreds of people, or so they have told me.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I guess you are going on the assumption that if you tell a lie often enough people will finally believe it. You had your answer months ago, sorry you didn’t like it.
[/QUOTE]
Your answer was, and a paraphrase, but this isn’t very far off “no, you’re wrong.” Then you left the thread and basically declared that you didn’t want to talk about the subject anymore.
The very BOOK THAT YOU CITED describes a timeline wherein Reynolds was only brain dead for a few minutes. You asserted that she was dead for a matter of hours, and then cited a book for this claim. I pointed out that the book explicitly said the opposite. Calling me a liar is simply irrelevant rhetoric. Show me I’m wrong.
We have to keep coming back to these issues because you keep claiming that there is objective evidence of your claims, but when it comes down to discussing that evidence, it turns out that it isn’t what you say it is after all. That’s a serious problem with your claims that you can’t run away from with vague assertions about “research being done.” What does that research consist of? If it is all as factually challenged as your account of Pam Reynold’s case, then that IS a pretty darn important issue.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Actually, I have my doubts as to whether even God could prove the existence of God (except by reaching directly into your mind and tweaking your belief-system, but that would be brainwashing, not proof). It’s the “Satan problem.” Suppose you see a bush burning with fire that does not consume it, and a voice comes out saying, “I am God!” It’s clearly something out of the ordinary, but how do you know it’s God? It could be Satan or a demon. It could be an elf or a djinn or a wizard. It could be a petty godling who has power over all the Earth but not all the Universe. It could be an extraterrestrial sentient being, no more supernatural than yourself, with advanced special-effects technology and a wicked sense of humor.
[/QUOTE]
Your post is pretty much right. But you will know it if you meet up with God. It’s called intuition. Listen to it.
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans]
Or, like the Buddhists will say, “God is closer to you than your jugular vein.”
[/QUOTE]
Buddhists allow for the existence of God but assign him absolutely no spiritual importance. It is the principal difference between Buddhism and Hinduism.
[QUOTE=GenericAzn]
I realize that many people believe in god, jesus, buddha, allah, etc.
However, what kind of proof is there to substantiate any of these beliefs?
[/QUOTE]
If you don’t mind my asking, why are you requesting proof (as opposed to, say, evidence)? Do you maintain that only beliefs which are provable are worth holding?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, people are changed by major trauma, but not like near death experiencers.
Near death experiences, almost always, causes profound personality and life style changes in the experiencer. Some NDE experiencers go back to school to become teachers or counselors. Some lecture, write books. Others do volunteer work at Hospices, Nursing Homes and Hospitals. Some open “Centers of Learning” or start classes/support groups. Even those who don’t “go public” with their experience are “changed” into kinder and more loving individuals. The impact of the experience is “to change the experiencer” and the “change” lasts a lifetime.
I started a web site, that has helped hundreds of people, or so they have told me.
[/QUOTE]
…No, i’d say people suffering major trauma are changed like that, too. Big changes to lifestyle happen with many people who go through an event and start actually thinking more about things. If it’s a heart attack or other serious medical issue (like… losing a leg, or finding out you have diabetes), people will often change their lifestyle beyond that which is demanded by their condition.
I know you have a website, and I’m sure there are people who require support, whether or not NDEs are real or more like dreams. But there are websites, support centres, counsellors for those who lose limbs. Big changed come with major traumatic events - it’s not just NDEs.
I would just like to offer my support and Prayers to those here who can use them. I will not even try to "run with the big dogs " as it were as we all know how that goes. But I offer my Prayers just the same.
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans]
My guess, however, is that every soul that exists knows at some level that God exists.
[/quote]
Not being quite so sure of myself, I don’t guess that every mind that exists knows at some level that God doesn’t exist. I’m capable of believing that others hold their beliefs sincerely, even when those beliefs are different from my own. What is it about your beliefs, do you think, that require you to think that those who disagree with you aren’t sincere?
Yeah, looking at the universe makes me feel weak and puny, sure. What makes sense to me, though, is taking a humble attitude and trying to find out what this magnificent giant universe is like.
It’s a reverse Pascal’s wager. If there’s an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God, that entity is very likely to reveal itself to me without requiring me to jump through all sorts of hoops. If there isn’t such an entity, then spending my life in a fruitless effort to find it is a waste of the limited time I have.
And furthermore, I know that if I spend enough time looking for any specific deity, I’m probably going to find it, by nature of how the human brain works. If I want to find the truth, a program of physical deprivation combined with repetitive assertion of a certain set of facts is a lousy way to find it: all that’ll do is convince me that that particular set of facts is true, whether or not it is.
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans]
A definition of God shouldn’t be so tough to come to. And for this type of discussion/debate it has to be established if it’s to be meaningful. It’s called an ontological argument, as I recall. That is, first the parties are to come to an agreement of the definition of God, and then go from there.
[/QUOTE]
You may be thinking of the classic ontological argument for the existence of God. originally formulated by Saint Anselm: God is defined as the perfect being, the most perfect being that can be conceived; non-existence would be an imperfection, in that a non-existent God would be less perfect than an existent one; therefore, God exists. By definition.
It should not take you very long, I hope, to spot the basic flaw in that reasoning.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
OK. I did it. Now what? Well not the fasting part. Hard to believe god only reveals himself to the hungry.
I have been to Baptist revivals, catholic mass, even been to the Vatican, I have stood on top of pyramids in Tepotzlan, the Pyramid of the Sun and the Moon near Mexico City, Baptized in a river in Alabama and in a cathedral in Milan, sat through Episcapal services and Lutheran even went to a meeting of “friends”. I have prayed and read the bible, the torah, the koran even the book of mormon and Pearls of great price (?) and many other religious books I have been to the Tigris and Euphrates valley and “the holy land” I have opened my heart, humbled myself, begged pleaded, even did shrooms on a mountain in southern mexico. I have put myself out there, and got nothing. As far as I am concerned if god does exist and he is what you and other theists claim, then to me he is no better than a dead beat dad who is behind on his child support.
[/QUOTE]
Wow. You gave up too soon. You’re obviously one that has desire and energy galore. Maybe if you try petitioning His Mediator, Jesus, the door will open. But no matter what you do, you should always ask with sincere humility and understand that He has His own time frame and ways of doing things.
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
1.) Like several others who have posted in this thread, I have had personal experiences which can only be explained by the existence of God.
[/QUOTE]
See post #85. There is no such thing, even in theory, as an experience or event which can be explained only by the existence of God.
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans]
Wow. You gave up too soon. You’re obviously one that has desire and energy galore. Maybe if you try petitioning His Mediator, Jesus, the door will open. But no matter what you do, you should always ask with sincere humility and understand that He has His own time frame and ways of doing things.
[/QUOTE]
No, he absolutely shouldn’t assume the answer to the question that he’s asking. That would be silly, and would keep him from getting an accurate answer.
As I’ve said before, proving his existence will be God’s easy part. Proving his benevolence will be the hard part. God may have His own time frame, but if he exists, my best understanding of him is that he’s a right bastard.
Sure, I may be wrong on this–but when you say he’s nice, you might be wrong, too. How do we figure out who’s right and who’s wrong?
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
…No, i’d say people suffering major trauma are changed like that, too. Big changes to lifestyle happen with many people who go through an event and start actually thinking more about things. If it’s a heart attack or other serious medical issue (like… losing a leg, or finding out you have diabetes), people will often change their lifestyle beyond that which is demanded by their condition.
I know you have a website, and I’m sure there are people who require support, whether or not NDEs are real or more like dreams. But there are websites, support centres, counsellors for those who lose limbs. Big changed come with major traumatic events - it’s not just NDEs.
How long for?
[/QUOTE]
Hey RT , not to hijack , but I am actually thinking about having an MRI on my brain. What you describe there is kind of what happened to me. Over the course of about 2 weeks I began to change , and when it happened I began to see what was going on around me more clearly , about the human condition and how badly I treated people and how I really never helped anyone at all except my friends and my family . Maybe I’ve gone mad, maybe it’s a tumor or maybe I grew up. I’m really getting the MRI for my wife because she doesn’t understand me much anymore. But that’s a whole other story. Peace be with you, friend.
Buddhists allow for the existence of God but assign him absolutely no spiritual importance. It is the principal difference between Buddhism and Hinduism.
You’re obviously one that has desire and energy galore. Maybe if you try petitioning His Mediator, Jesus, the door will open. But no matter what you do, you should always ask with sincere humility and understand that He has His own time frame and ways of doing things. 