And God so loved the world that he sent His only Son down, that people who worship Him may annoy us for all eternity.
Come on. He tried to flood the whole blasted thing. Not to mention that it’s His fault there’s all this religious junk. If God really loved the world that much, He’d leave us alone.
First off, I’m not familiar with you, so please don’t take offence. Is your question serious or in jest? I only ask because if it is in jest, then I don’t want to bother with the Trinity info. However, if it is serious, I would be more than happy to give you my point of view.
Tracer wrote:
Yes, God’s son did rise from the dead three days later, thanks be to God. It was a sacrifice. In two different forms. The method of crucifixion was one of the most horrible deaths one could die, reserved for murderers and thieves. Here is a medical doctor’s description of what happened-
[quote]
The cross is placed on the ground and the exhausted man is quickly thrown
backwards with his shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the
depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square wrought-iron nail
through the wrist deep into the wood.
Quickly he moves to the other side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms too tightly, but to allow
some flex and movement. The cross is then lifted into place. The left foot is pressed
backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is
driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees flexed. The victim is now crucified.
As he slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating fiery
pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain, the nails in the
wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.
As he pushes himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, he places the full
weight on the nail through his feet. Again he feels the searing agony of the nail
tearing through the nerves between the bones of his feet.
As the arms fatigue, cramps sweep through his muscles, knotting them deep relentless,
throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push himself upward to
breathe. Air can be drawn into the lungs but not exhaled.
He fights to raise himself in order to get even one small breath.
Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream, and the cramps
partially subsided. Spasmodically, he is able to push himself upward to exhale and bring in life-giving oxygen. Hours of limitless pain,cycles of twisting, joint-rentng cramps,
intermittent partial asphyxiation,searing pain as tissue is torn from his lacerated back as he moves up and down against rough
timber. Then another agony begins: a deep, crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serium and begins to compress the heart.
It is now almost over-the loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level-the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissues-the tortured lungs are making frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. He can feel the chill of death creeping through his tissues…
Finally, he can allow his body to die…[\QUOTE]
That covers the physical side of the sacrifice. Now for the spiritual part. Just so you know this second part comes with the assumption that Christ is the Son of God.
In the Gospel of John, it says
It is understood here that the Word spoken of is Jesus, this is evident by reading the rest of the chapter. I quote that to say this- Jesus was with God. Always. He had never been seperated from God, ever. Even throughout his ministry he was in constant communion with God.
However, God cannot look upon sin. At the crucifixion Christ bore the everyone’s sins. Because of that God had to seperate himself from Christ. That is why Christ didn’t cry “My God, my God, why have you allowed this to happen to me.” No, he cried "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.
That is the sacrifice. No greater love can anyone have, than to lay down His life for a friend. Christ died for us while we were still “dead in our transgressions.” Hallelujah! What a savior!
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
So J.C.‘s “sacrifice” consisted of (A) subjecting himself to excruciating pain for a few hours (which, being the Son o’ God, he could easily have blocked out; the scriptures don’t say he was in pain), and (B) temporarily shutting himself off from any contact with Dad, which he had never experienced before, but which he knew ahead of time would only last for 3 days.
Still sounds like he didn’t so much “lay down his life” as send it out to be dry-cleaned for a weekend.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
A)- Yes he could have shut it off but He didn’t. This is something taken on faith. If he could have- it would have rendered his death mute, as he has “been tempted” in every way we have, including denying God in the midst of great pain.
B)- It wasn’t as simple as cutting off contact from Dad. They were linked, they were in essence one. When God turned his back… Jesus was truly all alone. Humans can’t understand it, but for Jesus is must have been terrible. If you notice it was this that he cried out about… not the pain of the crucifixion.
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
While Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, he prayed saying “Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will but Thine be done.” Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him strengthening Him and being in agony He was praying very fervently and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
Sounds pretty intense to me!
“Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.”
Is it scripturally recorded that God ever spoke directly and audibly to Jesus? If not, then could it be argued that the “sweating blood” was God’s answer–“you’re gonna bleed, Son.”?
David…I believe when Jesus was being baptized and the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and coming upon Him, and a voice out of the heavens, saying “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
I feel that by the time Jesus reached maturity He knew what was in store for Him.
Actually, yes, God did turn His back so to speak on Jesus so that this sacrifice would be made for mankind. But He sent his angels to minister to Jesus.
“Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.”
Sorry, I’m still laughing from Spritus Mundi’s “swallow” crack.
The Christian “God” is a fairy tale. I do believe that Jesus was a real person, though he was definitely mortal and not much more than one of the great spritual teachers.
In fact, if you objectively compare them I think you will find that the Buddha was much more enlightened spiritually and had a lot more to say about what it means to be a human being alive on Earth.
Guys…you are fighting a losing battle here…these people are well aware of all the things that you are telling them…they know the story…most know the Bible fairly well…they are only “egging” you on to get a rise out of you. If you see an intelligent and honest question…answer it…if not…don’t open yourselves up to this… there is no solid purpose for it. These are not ignorant heathens that you are preaching to. These are intelligent adults. They can make their own decisions…they already know most of what you are typing. Shake the dust from your shoes and leave it behind.
