God vs. Satan

[Voyager]

@ITR_champion

Nobody can know for sure exactly what the ancient Jews believed at various stages of history. Some scholars, though not all, agree with what Latro said about none of the Old Testament being written before the Babylonian exile. Others believe that various parts may have been written earlier. No one can offer firm proof of when the older portions of the Old Testament were written.

The contradictory nature of the stories edited together is a pretty firm indication that they were written and accepted long before their collection. I’d suppose they were too well integrated into folklore to just be dropped.

[Voyager]

@Stink Fish Pot

Thank you for these answers. This is fascinating to me. I don’t know why, but I always assumed that there was no origin of God. He was just there (or here and there and everywhere). To think he was one of many who ultimately rose to the top of the “good” side, well this is a story I never heard in my Sunday school classes.

I do see the similarity between god + angels vs. Satan + demons. But I’m still unclear as to how they interact with their supporters (I keep thinking of God as the Snow miser, and Satan as Heat miser… Just for visual reference), as well as each other. For instance, Satan always gets heavens rejects. But does Satan get to reject anyone to Heaven? (Since those are the only two destinations, I’m guessing no.)

Question: of all of the “before the OT” events, are these written down and captured somewhere (like the OT) or are they part of the teachings you’ve learned along the way? Also, does this information give God and Satan an origin? Is Satan really a fallen angel?

You should carefully reread Genesis. In the very first part, before the Flood, God was evident to all. But after Abram had to rediscover him, and God went from a universal God to a tribal god, though one stronger than any others. And from there he became the only god. But Judaism even today shares the tolerance that ancient polytheistic religions (and modern ones too) displayed. Our Gods may be better than your gods, but saying your gods do not exist is rude. This you see in lack of penalty for not believing, not actual acceptance of other gods today.

I’ve always wondered why Satan, if he is so powerful, doesn’t make hell a nice place to live, like in Shaw’s Man and Superman. Dante shows him stuck in ice in the middle of hell.

I think the real answer to your question is that Christian views of Satan are an inconsistent mess, which you will never untangle.

[Malthus]

@Gagundathar

The term I was taught to describe the form of theism where a certain deity is chosen to be the chief deity (as in ‘thou shalt have no other gods before me’) among many is Henotheism. It was first used in the early 19th century to describe the intermediate step between polytheism and monotheism.

Most generally, henotheism is where a worshipper choses to worship only one out of a pantheon, but admits that other gods exist. The one so chosen may or may not be the chief diety.

A sub-variety of henotheism known as “monolatrism” is where one only worships a single god, admits that other gods exist, but insists that other gods are not worthy of worship. This variety best describes the position of the redactors of the OT.

http://atheism.about.com/od/theismtheists/a/Monolatry-Monotheism-Gods.htm

Once you know what to look for, the evidence of monolatry is fairly clear and unmistakable. All around are exhortations to worship Yahweh and not other gods, that Yahweh is stronger than other gods, and so forth. This makes far more sense in a monolatrous religious context than in a monotheistic religious context. No one in modern Judaism, Christianity, or Islam argues that people shouldn’t worship “other gods” because they deny that any other gods exist in the first place.

The earliest Jews allowed for the existence of other gods, just as other ancient tribes and civilizations did, but the Jews took the unusual step of insisting that foreign gods shouldn’t be worshipped at all and, moreover, that they weren’t really just manifestations of the same god that they were worshipping.

[ITR_champion]

@Voyager

I’ve always wondered why Satan, if he is so powerful, doesn’t make hell a nice place to live, like in Shaw’s Man and Superman.

Some human beings take actions which make themselves less happy, or fail to take actions that would make themselves more happy. If human beings do so, then who’s to say that Satan wouldn’t do so as well?

[Latro]

@ITR_champion

Some human beings take actions which make themselves less happy, or fail to take actions that would make themselves more happy. If human beings do so, then who’s to say that Satan wouldn’t do so as well?

Well, that’s true. Some people even cling to a certain religion that wants them to feel like they are unworthy filth.

[Voyager]

@ITR_champion

Some human beings take actions which make themselves less happy, or fail to take actions that would make themselves more happy. If human beings do so, then who’s to say that Satan wouldn’t do so as well?

So, Satan is not nearly as smart as the CEO of the random startup?
“Come work for me - here are your chains and the torturer comes twice a day.”

Not someone we have to worry about, then.

[Voyager]

@Latro

Well, that’s true. Some people even cling to a certain religion that wants them to feel like they are unworthy filth.

Saved unworthy filth, while everyone else is unworthy filth who they will get to watch suffer for eternity. Such fun!

[ITR_champion]

@Latro

Well, that’s true. Some people even cling to a certain religion that wants them to feel like they are unworthy filth.

Perhaps so, though I’ve never met any such person.

[Der_Trihs]

@ITR_champion

Perhaps so, though I’ve never met any such person.

Don’t be silly, you’ve met huge numbers of them. Pretty much any woman or homosexual who is religious for example.

[Jragon]

@Latro

When the Jews started to write down the bible they were in the phase where Yaweh had become chief god, top dog, and the other gods had been reduced to his little helpers.

The way it was presented to me wasn’t that simple. The Bible was rewritten numerous times, and Genesis’ original drafts weren’t written when Yahweh was the main god yet, it was only Exodus and after where that happened (and even then Yahweh was more of a temporary patron god during a time of strife). This was then followed by a series of slavishly devoted cultists revising history to make it so Yahweh had always been the best (and eventually the only god).

Here’s a video that explains what I was taught in more detail:

2.5 Atheism: A History of God (A)

[kaylasdad99]

Since this isn’t exactly a witnessing thread, but more a discussion of the tropes behind what is perhaps Western Civilization’s oldest melodrama, shouldn’t this be in Cafe Society?

[Latro]

@ITR_champion

Some scholars, though not all, agree with what Latro said about none of the Old Testament being written before the Babylonian exile.

@Jragon

The way it was presented to me wasn’t that simple.

Just to be clear, I’m not claiming that nothing was written down before the moving to Babylon. I was just trying to put a concise perspective on things for Stink.