Gollum slipped and fell in the fires of the Sammath Naur because...

I don’t think Sam was emotionally capable of such a thing. Aragorn, Legolas, or Gimli might have been.

Yea, but Sam would have killed them if they had tried.

Enjoy,
Steven

I’m going to pretend that I don’t know what you’re talking about. :cool:

Frodo was still small potatoes, as far as that goes: Had Aragorn, say, claimed the Ring, he would have already been more capable with it the moment he put it on than Frodo ever was. Certainly, Frodo was learning, but more significant, I think, is that first, the Ring itself was growing more powerful as it drew nearer to the Fire, and second, that Gollum was already fully under the thrall of the Ring. Giving commands to Gollum through the Ring wasn’t all that big a deal; a truly powerful wielder would have been able to turn ordinary folks into something like Gollum.

No argument there. If all the “good guys” had made nothing but virtuous choices at every opportunity, the book would have been irritating. The idea that people (at least the hobbits, who are the people we are supposed to identify with the most) can be heroic even though flawed is essential. (I know, you know all this already.)

I mention Sam’s action on the Stair because a good argument can be made that his uncharitable and unfair actions to Gollum at that moment were the proximate cause of Gollum’s betray. A good argument can be made (and has been, by persons other than me) that, absent said betrayal, the Quest ultimately fails; and since many/most of us are inclined to see the hand of Eru in all this, we are forced to conclude that the All-Father intended (providentially) for both Sam and Gollum to act sinfully in order for Middle-earth to be saved.

Some might find this notion discomfiting.

I will the first in line to buy The Ring Done Gone when you get published.

(“The Return of the Shadow”??? Where have I been?)

This is a topic near and dear to my heart, because it seemed to me a perfect example of how evil is inherently self-destructive. The Ring enjoys betraying any Bearer other than Sauron, and possibly Sauron as well. After all, “and into this ring he poured all his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life.” The Ring is the apotheosis of Malice. And one of the ways it works its malice is to execute the will of its bearer (or someone who swears by it) in a way least desirable to its swearer: a Monkey’s Paw kind of wish fulfillment. So when Gollum swore to obey the master of the Precious or be cast into the Fire, the Ring gleefully caused it to happen when Gollum betrayed the master (Frodo). This had the unhappy (for the Ring) side-effect of destroying the Ring, but the Ring, in its malice, isn’t too good about looking ahead; it takes the quickest, dirtiest route to Spite it can find. Oops.

Except that that’s not how the Professor saw it. He saw the destruction of the Ring as Eucatastrophe, Just as Qadgop said, an act of Grace on the part of Iluvater. And, as far as I’m concerned, Grace is just Caprice, dressed-up in religious clothes and pretending to be a good thing. Sudden, unlooked for, undeserved.

So while I was thinking Tolkien was making a wonderful statement about the nature of Evil, and how it inherently leads to its own destruction, he was really making a statement about his God, who does occasional wonderful things for people because it seems like a good idea at the time, and who presumably can similarly do nasty things for the same (non-)reason.

In real life, I think Evil does tend to be somewhat short-sighted and therefore can be self-destructive, but I think chance plays a large role in what actually happens. But Middle-earth is not real life, and I thought it was such a great, self-contained, inherently logical way for the situation to be resolved. And I find it hard to believe that Tolkien didn’t at least have some of that idea in mind himself, because it does wrap up so perfectly. Gollum swears to obey the Master or be cast into the Fire, Gollum betrays the Master, Gollum is cast into the Fire. Lovely. But apparently that’s not the way Tolkien wanted it to be read.

ANd they failed to install railings.

Well, you know the Nazgul; they get railings, they’re just gonna lean on 'em alla the time.

I hope that I’m getting wooshed here. Gollum most definitely did not give BB the Ring, BB found it while crawling around in the dark after having escaped the goblins.

How could there not be a choice for “unobtanium?”

Not a precious poll at all. Not preciooooous.