I’m reading LOTR again and I just couldn’t help but think that Gandalf used some magic to help Bilbo get rid of the ring. Sure, Bilbo was a special case and showed a lot of resiliency towards the ring but I doubt he had any intent of actually giving the thing away.
It seems like the wizards seemed to favor subtle mind trick type magic instead of lightning bolts and teleportation.
What do you guys think?
Nope. It’s central to the theme that Bilbo gave it up willinglyl.
No. If Bilbo had not given up the ring voluntarily he would have been trying to get it back thereafter, and that would have fucked shit up.
Had Bilbo been unwilling to give up the Ring, nothing that Gandalf could have done would have gotten Bilbo to do so. As powerful and subtle as Gandalf may have been, the Ring was moreso.
All that Gandalf was doing was helping Bilbo to overcome the (fairly weak) hold that the Ring had on him.
If Bilbo really wanted to keep the Ring, he wouldn’t have reappeared back in Bag End, but instead would have stayed invisible until he was well away from Hobbiton.
The ring wasn’t the appendage of Sauron in The Hobbit that it became in LOTR. It wasn’t until after Bilbo gave it up that we learn the ring’s history, Gollum’s history or the ring’s power of seduction. This allowed Tolkein to keep the ring as a simple curiosity until it became central to the story.
It seems unlikely that Gandalf directly influenced Bilbo’s relinquishing of the Ring, but I’d wondered if he had some indirect influence nonetheless:
I agree that it’s a central theme that Bilbo gave up the Ring willingly, but perhaps Gandalf + Nenya lent him the strength to so at that critical moment.
Even more to the point of the OP’s question, GANDALF didn’t actually know it was THE Ring until after Bilbo had already left it on the mantel. Remember that Gandalf spent the 20 or so years after the Birthday Party running around Gondor and Rohan researching the Ring because he suspected that it was the One. He wouldn’t have even absolutely known that there WAS a need to influence Bilbo into leaving the Ring at the point in time when it was left.
Slightly off-topic, but furthermore I think Tolkein was hinting that the very reason he didn’t quite believe it was the One Ring was that it had so little effect on Bilbo. He never tried to dominate others or attain power with it, so until Gandalf completely ruled out any other possibility it seemed improbable.
Well, he knew it was a powerful ring and that it had power over Bilbo when Bilbo called it “his precious.” He could also see Bilbo was reluctant to give it up and was on the border of being violent. While that might have proven it was The Ring, I’m sure Gandalf knew it was a ring Bilbo had to let go of (for his safety, if nothing else).
I was thinking it might be a spell similar to that used on Theodan.
I would not say that Gandalf used a “spell” on Theoden. What he did in the Golden Hall was more of a parlor trick–lighting effects, essentially. But Gandalf has such a commanding presence that he was able to pierce through the gloom that Saruman and Wormtongue had laid on him. Basically, Theoden was suffering from depression and had been continually told by his closest advisor that he was old and weak. Gandalf did little more than what a good therapist/physical therapist would have done–he got him off his ass and convinced him that he WASN’T done for, that there WAS hope, and all the bad stuff he believed about himself was wrong.
Is Gandalf’s inspirational ability magically enhanced? Probably. But then, isn’t Aragorn’s, too, on some level? At least by fact of birth and breeding.
One of the main characteristics of the archetype of the “wise old man” is that he do not use force, or *make *the hero do the right thing, but rather with counsel and inspiration. If he used magic tricks to have the hero do what he wants him to do, the heroism would disappear, of course. Since Gandalf is the wise old man par excellence in our time, and Tolkien playing around with universal images, it would be very strange in my book if Gandalf used magic tricks on Bilbo. I get the feeling that the thought makes Tolkien turn in his grave—not that I know better than anyone else.
Also, as has been discussed here in a very interesting thread, among other things regarding Faramir and Peter Jackson’s interpretation of him, free will is essential in the Lord of the Rings. The free will of man. If man doesn’t do the right thing out of his or her own convictions, but by force and tricks, philosophically the good side would not prevail.
I seem to remember Gandalf saying something about how “Bilbo needed all my help to give up the Ring”, so that gave me the impression he was doing some sort of subtle unseen spell-casting.
It doesn’t make sense that Bilbo would have given the ring up voluntarilty. He was about to head off on a journey into the Wild. An invisibility ring would have been the most useful of items, even if he hadn’t become “addicted” to it?
I think he was speaking more of his powers of (mundane) persuasion. I believe it is stated somewhere in the books that if Bilbo had been forced to give up the ring, it would have broken him, and that he bounced back so well due to the fact that he gave it up willingly.
Then again, it is an open question as to what constitutes spell-casting in LotR, or even whether a spell can force someone to do something they don’t want to do.
Gandalf appeared to use both innate powers that were more readily available to him as Gandalf the White and the powers of Narya to heal Theoden and break the slow spells that were working on the King. The Ring of Fire was described as follows:
You’ll note the specific foresight Cirdan showed in the use Gandalf made of Narya most obviously on Theoden.
I think it could have been magically enhanced. He seemed to have subtle changes in his physical appearance too. The Voice of Saruman had such powers, so it isn’t much of a stretch to think Gandalf could do similar things.
We get into a fine line over what “magically enhanced” means. Saruman’s voice is still potent even after Gandalf breaks his staff. No doubt, even without his own staff or ring, Gandalf’s powers of persuasion would be strong. They’re both essentially angels, after all, even if they’re crammed into the bodies of old men.
But the whole Party affair was meant to give Bilbo a good run-up at giving the Ring away, as he was giving away a lot of presents - he says so. And although Bilbo was off on a journey, he had company, and wasn’t likely to be in a lot of trouble. So yes, giving up the Ring was planned and voluntary.
Gandalf’s use of the elven ring is not spoken about in specific detail at all by JRRT (that I recall, anyway. I would welcome evidence to the contrary). Only in later writings and the appendices does he reveal that Gandalf used it to kindle hearts and encourage bravery and resistance.
So it could well be that JRRT meant to imply that Narya could have been used to help Bilbo let go. But I don’t believe he left any direct evidence of this actually being used for this purpose in his writings; only set up the supposition that it was possible.
I would suppose that he used it more to inspire an awakened Theoden, than to awaken him from the evil counsels of Wormtongue. IMHO.
Also, Bilbo’s innate “Hobbit-sense” helped him to resist the lure of the Ring. Gandalf once described hobbits as “soft as butter they are, and as tough as old tree-roots”. He also stated that they would resist falling under the Ring’s dominance far longer than the Wise would believe.