That’s what I was getting at above. It’s supposed that Saruman had made a Ring (he said as much in the books - “Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of many Colors!”), and perhaps this made Saruman (more) persuasive, in a daunting way, hence the Voice of Saruman having such potency. Gandalf possessed one of the Great Rings, which I’d think would be much more powerful than any trinket Saruman could bang together, and whose power was to rekindle hearts to brave deeds. It seems to me that Bilbo giving up the ring took all the courage and resolve that Bilbo could muster. Narya seems to me well-suited to assisting him. Not controlling, assisting.
But, as you say Qadgop, this is all speculation, and there’s no evidence either way.
If Gandalf had wanted to, he could have seized the ring from Bilbo easily. But that use of power would have sent him on the path to evil. Whether Gandalf had done this physically or magically does not matter. Gandalf did no more than suggest strongly to Bilbo what the right course was. And it was Gandalf that was in greater danger than Bilbo had Gandalf done anything more forceful.
I agree with this. The theme of free will seems to be tempered by the idea of a divine plan. You have to decide to do what’s right, but, when you do, event will make you stronger than you really are. Consider Frodo’s failure at the end of the quest. Because he tried his hardest to do what was right, events transpired that made his failure irrelevant.
You think that was a reward for Frodo, for doing his best? :dubious:
Here’s my crackpot theory:
The ring is inherently evil and destructive. But like all evil things, at some level it knows and detests its own evil. Brought back to its source, where its power is greatest, it destroys itself (through its hold over Gollum).
In a way the ring has always been seeking its own destruction (which is also its return to its source, the womb of Orodruin from whence it came), at least since it was first taken from Sauron. That is why it got Isildur killed, why it found Smeagol, and then Bilbo, and then relaxed its hold over Bilbo just enough to enable him to give it up at the crucial moment. If the ring had stayed with Isildur, or had fallen into the hands of Boromir or Galadriel, not only would it have made them into the new Sauron, but they, like Sauron, would have kept it. The ring made sure that did not happen.
LOTR is a story about how, with the help of the good, evil destroys itself.
Hm, I always thought it was more a matter of the Ring, being Evil, and Evil being inherentlly flawed not least because of its shortsightedness, betrayed Gollum exactly as Frodo had earlier predicted:
The Ring was malicious and treacherous, and looked for ways to twist what was required of it in order to betray its holder (presumably excepting Sauron himself). Gollum/Smeagol had sworn by it to serve Frodo, and Frodo had named the penalty for his forswearing his oath. When Gollum seized the Ring for himself, he was in fact cast from a precipice into the fire, just as Frodo had said. The Ring was too short-sighted in its malice and thus led to its own destruction.
In the larger picture, perhaps. The failure was anything but irrelevant to Frodo. What parts of his dark mood from the end of the War to his sailing to the West that weren’t the result of his Morgul-wound and the basic burden of carrying the Ring for so long came from that failure. He knew that his spirit and resistance to evil had faltered in the end, even if everyone else thought he was a hero for destroying the One. And that failure and the discrepancy between what actually happened and what everyone thought had happened nagged at him.
That is true, but not really relevant. He was taken to Valinor to help him get over that. He was never meant to destroy the Ring on his own: it was Sauron’s Will inside it, and that was vastly mroe than he could do. It’s unlikely that any mortal being, and maybe none fo the available immortal ones, could have willingly destroyed the Ring at the heart of its power.
Of course, this goes back to another of Tolkein’s points. Good fights evil not with strength but with weakness. Frodo coudl never have won through might, but he did win through the lack of it, even if ti wasn’t how he thought it could be done.
jayjay - wow, you summed up Frodo’s tragedy very well. I have often teared up at that Grey Havens scene in the book, because of the sadness of his loss amid the general “happy ending”.
An interesting discussion of Bilbo, Gandalf and the ring here. You guys never let me down with LOTR discussions. In return, here’s a fun link. It’s a funny take on “What if Tolkien submitted the Hobbit manuscript to a book editor today?”
I think you’re thinking of this bit in Moria between Frodo & Gandalf
I thought the book (or the silmarillion) explicitly said Bilbo was the only ring bearer to ever give up the ring of his own free will. Er…except that wouldn’t really be true, as Sam did it too. Hmm. Guess I’ll have to re-read the book.
I think it’s pretty clear that Gandalf was making use of Narya’s power to rekindle Theoden’s heart, but I don’t think that he could have, on Bilbo. That would be attempting to use the power of one of the Great Rings directly against the One, and I think the Ring-lore is pretty clear that any such attempt would fail at best (or subjugate the wearer to Sauron or the One, at worst). What Gandalf was using on Bilbo had to have been his own natural (and considerable) powers of persuasion.
Good point, Chronos. How could one of the Elf Rings ever beat the One Ring, I mean, that’s the whole point of it being 'One Ring to rule them all".
As to the debate about Saruman and his Ring(s); If Wormtongue hadn’t slit his throat, I could certainly have seen Saruman turning into the third Dark Lord of Middle Earth.
That Gollum’s actual fate is almost identical to Frodo’s threat is a very interesting point. But Tolkien describes Gollum’s fall into the fire as almost an accident, a result of not being fully aware of his immediate surroundings due to his obsession with the Ring and joy at finally getting it.
Well, yes. But “best” as Tolkien wrote in his letter 246:
Substantially correct. In the same letter, Tolkien parses it a little more closely:
And that last paragraph tells us something of the reasons Tolkien discarded the earlier version of “The Scouring of the Shire” in which Frodo took an active part.
Doesn’t Bilbo have to be wearing the ring for any of this to apply? Gandalf was apparently wearing his, but had the power to conceal it (or at least Galadriel could do this, and its implied that the other two bearers of The Three could as well). How could it be a contention between The One and Narya if The One was in Bilbo’s jacket pocket? How about if it were up on the mantle? Or in the cellar by that bottle of Old Winyards (a very good year)?
), this approach would be indistinguishable from what actually happened in the books, no?