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Since the elves were leaving for the land of the Valar anyway, couldn’t they have simply taken the Ring with them, out of Sauron’s reach? I know the preference was to destroy it and not just hide it, but couldn’t the Valar, once the Ring had reached them, find some way to destroy it? Or block its power?
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Did the wizards, Gandalf and Saruman, channel power through their staves or something? Its been a while, but I don’t remember a wizard’s staff being of particular importance, but Saruman took Gandalf’s staff in their fight and beat him, then Gandalf broke Saruman’s staff right after the Two Towers when they were talking, and at Minas Tirith the Witch King shattered Gandalf’s staff by holding up his flaming sword.
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Is the “no man may kill me” thing by the Witch King just a setup to an ironic death? A man could have stabbed him like Eowyn did and done the same damage, right?
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Gandalf and the Balrog fell down the bridge of Khazad-dum into some giant watery cavern in the earth. Later they apparently climb to the top of Caradhras where Gandalf finally deals the killing blow. Why did they climb back up to fight? Was one of them trying to escape from the other and was chased all the way up the caverns and up the mountain?
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I’ve not read the books yet, but I’m pretty sure even the elves couldn’t have carried the ring without succumbing to its power. Sure, they took of their own rings when Sauron tried to bind them, but we know of at least one ring holder elf who would have been sorely tempted. All it takes is one elf to choose to betray them, and you’re sunk. It’s not like they’d be traveling mostly alone, like Frodo was.
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It was a prophesy, so it’s not saying that no man could kill him, but that no one would. That’s why the word “may” is used, which in context means “would be allowed to.” No one else would have a chance. I gather this from the fact that Tolkien is on record as specifically saying that he was trying an alternate interpretation of the prophesy in Macbeth.
According to the lotr wiki, the Balrog tried to escape and Gandalf pursued it to the peak.
This is dealt with in the Council of Elrond chapter. The answer given is that the Valar would not accept the ring.
It is implied that they do. Note that in the book, Gandalf’s staff breaks (foreshadowing his fall) when he uses it to crack the bridge of Khazad-Dum, and he then fights the Balrog without use of it.
It’s unclear. Prophecy is a tricksy thing, ever ready to kick you in the ass. The three witches make a similar prophecy in Macbeth.
Unfortunately for Macbeth, Macduff was born by caesarian section.
In Macbeth, the question is whether the prophecies are a reflection of inescapable fate, or whether the come about purely due to Macbeth’s choices upon hearing them.
Yes, the Balrog was trying to escape Gandalf. Gandalf had no option but to follow, as he did not know how to reach the surface.
What would they have done with it, thrown it back to Middle Earth? I don’t know the bureaucracies of ME shipping routes, but it seems that if the Elves, all the way over here on the East, slipped a bit of jewelry into their pockets and then sailed all the way West, the Valar wouldn’t just tell them to turn back. Or maybe that’s thinking too realistically of a fantasy story
If Gandalf was kicking its ass, could he have simply faced the Balrog one on one before the bridge? Most of the orcs seemed to have been scared off
Destroying the bridge is refusing to acknowledge that Gandalf and the Balrog are two sides of the same coin, and you can bring down yourself by cutting yourself off, but that doesn’t leave you standing with just your good side. You must struggle with it. Once Gandalf faces his struggle and pursues it and defeats it, he transcends his own temptations. He dies in the process, but comes back stronger and wiser.
The ring was the problem and the responsibility of the peoples of Middle Earth to deal with. They couldn’t push the problem off on the Valar.
Gandalf wasn’t kicking the Balrog’s ass; he barely defeated it at all.
There’s no way it would have made the trip. It would have corrupted one of the elves. Remember, Frodo tries to give it to Galadriel and she turns it down:
“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”
You don’t just try to slip the One Ring by the Valar.
I don’t remember the text that well, but I seem to recall Gandalf saying that they fell into a subterranean lake that doused the fiery nature of the balrog and making it less dangerous but that even so, they were evenly matched in battle.
The Valar are demi-Gods, they would certainly have understood what the ring was. The Valar’s response to Sauron was to send emissaries, the Istari, not to become directly involved.
Really, this relates to the problem of evil. Why doesn’t God step in every time you try to take candy from a baby? LotR is an explicitly Christian, specifically Catholic, work.
It’s not implied that Gandalf had the upper hand. Why would the Gandalf wish to fight Gandalf, when it could simply leave him to wander the bowels of the Earth? Why fight one of the few beings in Middle Earth that was a match for it? It’s implied that the Balrog attacked the company because it either sensed or was drawn to the Ring.
While there is nothing wrong with using that a symbol of what Gandalf had gone through, this was not in any way, shape, or form, what actually happened, nor it at all related to why events happened. Gandalf had already overcome temptation by refusing the Ring. he was in no way willing to be like the Balrog and proved that many times over. His struggle with the Balrog came down physical (or magical, whatever) butt-kicking, and he made every attempt to avoid it, knowing that the Balrog might be better at killing people.
While it may be unrelated, Gandalf also tried to avoid giving the Balrog a fight in the open, instead limiting his avenues of attack and keeping his distance in the fight we saw. It was only once he couldn’t drive the Big Bad Boy off that he risked an open fight. And a running three-day battle, at that, pitting his sword agaisnt the sorcery of the Balrog. Also, as it came down to a tie, that kinda defeats your point. Gandalf didn’t win - he just had enough strength left for a lucky sacrifice play. That sacrifice victory is a far better reflection of the story.
To wit: Gandalf wasn’t strong enough to defeat his opponent, sunk in the wrecthedness of evil but completely, utterly focused on domination and destruction. So he pulls out everything he has to win, knowing he probably wasn’t coming back. However, a greater power makes good on the loss, and he is rewarded for his willingness to hold the line against evil no matter the personal cost. Heck, that’s basically the entire story of LotR and comes up many times for virtually every character, often more than once.
Edit: Remember that the Ring basically was Sauron: a tiny bit of his personal power and life. And Sauron was probably barred from Valinor after his second Face Heel turn.
This always seemed like a bogus excuse on the part of the Valar. Sauron was one of theirs as much as Morgoth was.
I’ve always wondered whether the Valar feared that the amount of power Sauron put in the Ring would have been too much temptation for even one of them.
:o ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz…!
This is worth commenting on. Tolkien spent a significant fraction of his life trying to reconcile his fantasy world with his Catholic world-view. This obsessiveness and meticulousness helped make LofR so rich. My own outlook is very different from his, but I have a lot of respect for what he achieved.
I thought Pippin woke up the Balrog by dropping something down a deep shaft.
He alerted everyone to their presence with that move - specifically the orcs - which would also alert the Balrog.
Yes, but having found the fellowship, did the Balrog become aware of the Ring? We know it calls out to all evil things, such as the orcs at Gladden Fields, and the Watcher in the Water.
If Gandalf had not slain the Balrog, would it have pursued the fellowship? Would it have attacked Lorien?
Not consciously, for certain, but he may have been pulled towards it with realizing he was being influenced. And he was certainly strong enough in will to at least challenge Sauron (although he would probably lose that contest).
Impossible to answer. It would not have done well in that fight if it had tried, though. Even leaving aside the numerous other powerful Elves, they had Galadriel, and she’s one lady you do NOT want to upset.
Re: getting from the pit to the top of the mountain. I just listened to the director’s commentary on that scene the other day, and Jackson said that the script called for a much longer battle scene between Gandalf and the Balrog. After being doused in the water, the Balrog’s flames are extinguished and he becomes this hideous slime-creature, and the two of them have this epic fight up, up, up countless stairs all the way to the top of the mountain.
However, the CGI for Slime Balrog proved too expensive and so in a budget-containing move they cut that part of the fight out.
Gandalf and the Balrog are peers. They are essentially angels (as are Sauron and Saruman). Gandalf the Grey was sent to Middle Earth rather hobbled in his power, his task was to influence and nurture. His fight with the Balrog was the only time he really needed to use his innate power, and it “killed” him. Why did he do that? Mostly to save the rest of the fellowship, and partly to prevent the hideous prospect of Sauron having a Balrog ally. Note also that (ret-conned 
) Gandalf managed to engineer the death of another potential Sauron weapon: Smaug.