Lord of the Rings Questions!

Well, I thumbed through Fellowship a bit at a bookstore a year or two back, and I made it halfway through Towers in 1978 (or was it 1979?) having read the previous books (and a chunk of Silmer)—but basically I’ve forgotten most of it and am basing these questions only on the movies, of which I’ve seen all three. Feel free to point out what’s true in the books.

Some of these questions are neutral, and some of them contain implicit or explicit criticisms. Try not to be too offended: I thought the movies were fairly decent, not great. I’ll provided a summary of my thoughts after the questions.

  1. Does the ring actually give the bearer any power other than invisibility? Certainly that can be useful, but not quite enough to call it “The Ring of Power.” It’s one thing that people want it so much because it’s cursed so that they want it. But what can it really do for them?

  2. The battle for Helm’s Deep seems to be a big deal, but Sauron’s force basically gets its ass handed to it. How is Mordor able to get it together for an equally big (bigger?) battle in Return. And don’t the two battles seem a little too similar? Sieges against big forts. Also, rather than extended, wide-spread wars, these seem more like just one-off battles—is that a correct understanding?

  3. At the battle of Helm’s Deep they say it’s 300 against 10,000 (before the Elves arrive; BTW, is that John Lovitz as the fat elf?). And the son is said to have a band of 2000 or so (although it seems like a lot less when they meet the heroes on the plain). Of course, a lot of them get killed. That doesn’t seem to equal that many reinforcements from Rohan for the final battle in Return, but in that movie it looks like a lot more, and they are able to defeat Sauron’s forces until the mercenaries arrive—what do you think?

  4. In the movies Gimli seems mostly like useless comic relief. Does he play a more essential role in the books?

  5. Are Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo supposed to be “dead” at the end of Return in some sense or another? Why is Frodo so eager to leave? He says there’s some pain or whatnot that hasn’t healed, etc., but that doesn’t seem like a very heroic sentiment, does it?

  6. Why are the Elves so bent on leaving, anyway?

  7. So, Sauron and the Nazgul know that someone has the ring and that he probably wants to destroy it. Don’t you think a few guards in and around Mt. Doom could have helped prevent the destruction of their ring?

  8. Also, are the Nazgul blind or retarded? In Towers Frodo holds up a ring so that the Naz gets a look, but this extremely powerful entity is deterred from pursuing Frodo when his dragon takes one arrow to the neck. Not very persistent. Hmm…. Also, since these bad dudes are unkillable (except by women, it seems), why don’t they get down on the ground and systematically root out all opponents, including Frodo?

  9. Is Rohan supposed to be kinda-sorta inferior to Gondor? Kindof the unfunky, unfancy little brother? BTW, I thought the realistic and beautiful architecture/effects of Gondor were the best thing in all three flicks. Truly amazing.

  10. Why does Gandolf not use his magic more? Also, don’t you think his powers are rather ill-defined? No sense is given of his powers or limitations. If this were D&D he would be like a 20th level magic user (at least!) and capable of a lot, lot more magic to use against Sauron’s forces.

  11. Was Saruman originally good? Why did he turn evil?

  12. Are there normal people living in Mordor, or is it all slimy Orcs and trolls? For example, during the scene before the Black Gate in Towers soldiers looking like normal humans march in and then search for the two hobbits when they hear a noise (although their faces are veiled, they are definitely not orcs).

  13. Sauron is like an evil god who can just walk around, etc.; but why isn’t there a similar good god?

Thanks for helping me with the above.

You’ve got about a dozen threads’ worth of questions there.

My advice would be that now’s the perfect time for you to read the books. I had tried to read them a couple of times before the first movie came out, but it always felt like a slog - not enjoyable at all. Then, after having seen FOTR, I tried again, and suddenly the books were great. Probably makes me uncultured swine, needing to see the movie before I could enjoy the book, but there you go.

Also, reading the trilogy will give you a lot of insight into these questions. I’ve only read the trilogy once, haven’t read The Silmarillion, haven’t read History of Middle-Earth, haven’t read Tolkien’s Letters, and I still feel like I could take a good crack at answering most of your questions. However, I know there are a lot of posters here who know a lot more about this stuff than I do, so I’ll just give some of my general impressions on a few of your questions.

  1. I think the main power of the ring is to tempt mortals into protecting it and using it, so that it can be easily found by Sauron. It also seems to create evil in general, and in Sauron’s hands this power would be greatly magnified, since it is, after all, his ring.

  2. More could be said, but remember that it was Saruman’s forces at Helm’s deep. Also, the book does mention other battles taking place all over Middle-Earth during the War of the Ring, which was a minor point that I missed from the movies.

  3. I also thought it looked like the Rohirrim had multiplied for the Pelennor Fields battle, but until the DVD comes out and we can pause it and do a headcount, who knows? They also seemed pretty fresh, considering they’d just ridden for 3? days to get to Gondor, after what, a day or two’s rest after Helm’s Deep? (This is how the chronology seemed to play out in the movie, anyway. I don’t remember exactly how it was in the books).

  4. Dwarves and Dwarvish culture are treated in a lot more depth in the books than it is in the films (where it isn’t really dealt with at all, except for the bearded dwarf-women stuff). I guess the films eshewed this in order to go into the Elvish side of things in more detail (which makes sense, because Elves are much more central to the whole story than Dwarves), but it does sort of make Gimli a bit flat as a character, which I suppose is why he had to become ‘the funny one’.

  5. and 6. are big questions that I’m just going to leave for one of our resident Tolkien people to deal with :slight_smile:

  6. I think it’s only explicitly stated in TTT extended edition, but it simply hadn’t occurred to Sauron that someone would try to destroy the ring. He thinks whoever has it will try to use it, revealing themselves to him in the process. Then he can just say “Go fetch!” to the Nazgul, and he’s got his ring. Even if he did think someone would TRY to destroy it, he’d be confident that the ring would corrupt them before they actually could (which indeed it did, to both Isildur and Frodo).

  7. Nazgul can’t see very well. Frodo would have only become distinct if he had put on the ring, which Sam prevented him from doing at the last minute. That’s the official answer, although it raises the question of why the Nazgul or his Beast didn’t just kill Frodo, if they didn’t think he had the ring. Incidentally, nothing like this scene was in the books - Frodo doesn’t even go to Osgiliath.

  8. I’m actually not sure about the differences in size between Rohan and Gondor. As you probably gathered, they haven’t been on the best of terms for a while, and Rohan certainly isn’t subservient to Gondor.

  9. Another big question, but the short answer is basically that wizards in Tolkien’s world just aren’t like that. They’re not very showy, most of the time.

  10. Yet another big question. I’ll leave it for someone else (because I’m not too clear on it all, myself) to go into the whole history of why there are wizards in Middle-Earth to begin with, who sent them, what they’ve been doing with themselves for thousands of years, and why Saruman went bad.

  11. Sauron had corrupted Southrons and Easterlings, who are humans. I don’t remember the book going into much detail about how exactly this was done.

  12. I think the answer to this one is sort of tied to the answer to 11. Again, I’m not really of much use here, since I think a lot of this stuff is explained in The Silmarillion and other writings.

After years of not reading the book and only seeing one of the movies, I present you with this…

  1. I believe it gives the bearer a different power according to their race, or enhances whatever they’re already skilled in.

5/6 (maybe). Frodo and Gandalf are going where the Elves went. The place (forgot the name) where they can apparently live in peace.

  1. Well, Gandalf is a Demi-God sent to destroy Sauron. As are the other three (?) wizards identified by color. The others have just failed in keeping their task. I’m not sure if Sauron is a Demi-God, but he isn’t a God.

                               crap

These are related, so I’ll give a non-Tolkien-technical response. Gandalf & Saruman are not so much demigods, as they are incarnated angels (I believe the “maiar”, under the Valar, which are like Archangels). There are five in the world who consult with each other but only G & S are full characters in LOTR.
They are limited in their use of powers to protect the integrity of Free Will and the more subtle workings of Providence in Middle Earth. Also, because the Age of Men is dawning, what Magic had worked powerfully & openly in the earlier Ages is now fading- especially with the withdrawal of the Elves.

Saruman turned evil as he either wants to ally with Sauron (“the wave of the future”), pretend to ally with Sauron until he can establish his own power & supplant him, or use Sauronic methods for the “Greater Good” of establishing order in M-E. He may not even recognize himself as evil, he may see himself as a progressive servant of Illuvatar-Eru-The One, who is the Good God.

The Good God prefers not to impose Goodness as Sauron would impose Evil. Thus, He operates very subtly & through moral influence & wisdom & “small coincidences” (Providential ones). He may well have an embodiment in M-E, Tom Bombadil, whose purpose as a character in the books was deemed too remote or distracting to have worked in the films (I don’t agree but I understand the reasoning).

Ill give it a shot, until more knowledgable individuals can come and correct me,

  1. The One Ring gives power according to the nature of the bearer. As the individual goes stronger, so the power that he can access through the rings grow proportionally. This is why Gandalf or Galadrial will not touch the ring, they would be able to tap into its full power and know they would be unlikely to refuse its seductive call.

  2. The battle at Helm’s Deep is against the armies of Saruman [i.e. Not Sauron] and ergo the armies of Isengard and not really Mordor. The movies portray an alliance between these two towers, but Saruman’s forces realy aren’t that strong. He is also defeated because he didnt take the Ents into account, and the moving trees [Huorns] play a decisive part in the defeat of the Orc army at Helm’s Deep. There are wars going on all through the lands of Middle Earth. The Elves of Lothlorian are allied with Legolas’ people and are involved in the attack against Saurons lesser fortress in Mirkwood. The Dwarves are assaild by Saurons Northen Army. Legolas makes a telling quote in the book, when Gimli wishes for more of his own kind to join the battle, that they had “no need to go to war, war marched on their own lands”. Further elabouration can be found in the appendices to the books.

  3. Rohirrim numbers, I cant remember any of hand details in the books about them. Re-inforcements are gathered in Dunharrow from the other folds of the mark, and i suspect this would be a substantial number of people. 10,000 or so would not be unreasonable in my opinion. But i cant back that up with any real number from the books, so while it seems a big increase for Rohan, I cant say it is unreasonable.

  4. Gimli is a seasoned respected member of the fellowship. No comic relief at all, except in the sense that all the characters provide a bit.

  5. Theyre through with Middle Earth. They have the choice to return to the undying lands, practically heaven on earth. With the destruction of the One, they loose the power to constrain time in ME, and so choose to leave. The psychology of elves is something this mortal doesnt undersand, so I leave it to more avid JRRT fans

  6. See 5.

  7. It never enters Saurons mind until the last minute that someone would seek to destroy the ring. Gandalf mentions how Saurons judgement is clouded by his own sense off malice and evil. He quite rightly believes that no one could resist the temptation and seduction of the Ring. Gandalf again says it never would occur to the Dark Lord that they would seek to cast him down, and have no one in his place.

  8. **Erroneous ** has a fine response. In a foot note of interest, the wraiths really only can see in the wraith world, and that is why Frodo becomes visible to them when he puts on the Ring. They are otherwise dependent on their steeds for guidence, at least initially. The books make clear that the real power of the wraiths was not so much in combat - though they are strong - but in the fear and terror they inspire in others. Its mentioned in The Return of the King [book] that this is in fact theit primary weapon, and its what Sauron uses them for. You amy take the rather cynical view that maybe theyre pretty pathetic at combat since Aragon can beat them off when down on odds of 5-1.

  9. A couple of year ago [500 odd] Rohan bailed the ass of Gondor in a fight they would otheriwse have lost. I dont think there is any notion that Rohan is inferior. They are treated as equals, though perhaps with the return of the King to Gondor, one might say that Gondor is greater. Certainly while under the stewards one might say the two kingdoms were equal. This is of course a sibjective view and thats the problem. No texts exist on the societal attitudes of Gondor and Rohan towards either for obvious reasons.

  10. Tolkiens wizards are not party conjurers. They rarely use their magic, their power is in wisdom, lore and council. They are more grandmasters than sorceror. Certainly Gandalf invokes his powers only in situtations of grave danger or neccesity. Thats just part of their design. Otherwise it would be easy to use them as ploy to fulfill the plot,

  11. Saruman was good once, he was a wizard of high standing and great knowledge. He was the head of the order of wizards that entered ME in the second age, an order of which Gandalf was just a part. His powers are basicly explained in the books as if you can think of it he can do it. Gandalf mentions that even with Sarumans treachery laid bare, he would only trust Elrond, Galadriel and Himself to be alone with Saruman. In other words the bearers of the Elvish rings are the only people who could stand agianst Saruman even when he was at such a low point. He turns evil, i think its suggested by too close a study of the arts of the enemy, and these in the end seduce him. Saruman is the Darth Vader of LotR.

  12. Many chiefs of men pay tribute to Sauron, and send men to his end. They have a long standing grievance with the men of the west, and so choose Sauron as a way to defeat them [Gross over-simplifcation in this answer]

  13. Sauron is a Maia, basically a kind of spirit or lower god. Gandalf and the other wizrds are also maiar, but of diiferent type. Their exact level of relative powers is unknown, though Gandalf does imply that he isnt as strong as the Dark Lord, but is stronger then everything else in ME, when he returns as The White. There are real gods in the ME mythos, known as the Valar, and the Maiar are there servants who helped create the world. Gandalf does mention that there are other powers at work in the world than the forces of evil.
    This has got to be my biggest post ever. If I’ve made any errors, hopefully the real authorities like QtM will come along and correct them

I haven’t read the books yet, but I have seen the movies numerous times, and I’m going to attempt to answer just a few of your questions from what I got from the movies (including extended editions) Don’t take it as gospel though… just my impressions…

  1. Not sure what else it can do, but remember that it gave Golum an extremely long life. In Sauron’s hand’s it has the power to control all the other rings.

  2. In RotK, I believe they said Rohan’s forces were 6,000 strong… I could be wrong, but I think they had a little more time to gather forces in RotK. Even though it was only 3 days, they could reach outlying villages to gather men. In TTT, they were scrambling to save the people from just one city, and thus they only had the numbers from one city. True Tolkien fans correct me if I’m wrong.

  3. I would only like to offer that Frodo’s pain is from the injury he recieved from the Nazgul in FotR.

<< In a foot note of interest, the wraiths really only can see in the wraith world, and that is why Frodo becomes visible to them when he puts on the Ring. >>

This is what the movie is obviously implying, and somewhat consistent with what the books said, but the drama of Frodo standing only a few meters away from the Nazgul and holding up the ring was over-the-top for me. The Nazgul captain obviously sees well enough in the real world to seek out Theoden at the Battle of Pelennor. And don’t say that he’s seeing through his fell beast, because he obviously thinks he can fight the disguised Eowyn after she’s killed his beast. I think it’s a case of internal inconsistency in the movies.

In the books, there is no such scene as Frodo holding the ring in front of a nazgul.
<< 7. It never enters Saurons mind until the last minute that someone would seek to destroy the ring. Gandalf mentions how Saurons judgement is clouded by his own sense off malice and evil. He quite rightly believes that no one could resist the temptation and seduction of the Ring. Gandalf again says it never would occur to the Dark Lord that they would seek to cast him down, and have no one in his place. >>

This was a major point in the books – that Sauron will never expect them to try to destroy the ring. He expects them to use it, and he hopes they will use it before they are ready. It was, I think, a serious defect in the movies that this was not emphasized more.

Responding to the Question 1 (what power does the ring bestow), the ring gives knowledge and control (details unspecified) but the ring-wearer needs to adapt to it over time. The Power is some sort of mystical connection witht eh ring-wearer’s personal power, that can get amplified. Remember that, to Tolkien and to ancient mythologies, there is a Power within certain people – the divine right of kings, if you will – and the ring seems to amplify that. However, the ring also clouds one’s judgement through greed for power. Thus, Sauron expects that Gandalf or Aragorn or someone else will try to use the full power of the ring before they really understand it, and he’ll be able to catch 'em.

I can buy the Nazgul not being able to see Frodo, thats not what bothered me most about that scene though. What really bothered me is that Faramir watches Frodo almost betray the ring to the enemy THEN he decides to let them go right at that moment. There is no way anyone, no matter how untempted they where by the ring, would let Frodo go right into Mordor after seeing that. It just doesn’t make sense. He would’ve marched Frodo right into Minas Tirith if he even considered the possibility that Frodo would betray them, which he certainly should after watching him barely avoid it.

Gonna add my answers to just a few of your questions (good questions all; can all be answered by reading the books, but it’s fun to get peoples’ interpretations.)

  1. The ring gives power over others. Since dominating others, taking away their free will is evil, everything about the ring is evil. The ring gives power according to the stature of the bearer - therefore a powerful god like Sauron could do more with it than, say, Smeagol.

  2. In the books it is clear that the war is world wide (there were battles to the North and South, and near Lorien), not limited to just Helm’s Deep & Minas Tirith

  3. I think Gimli’s role in the books is mainly to represent the dwarves as one of the free peoples in the Fellowship. And of course his developing friendship with Legolas is presented. The dwarves fight important battles, but away from the main action in the book and not in the movies.

  4. At the end Frodo (as detailed in another thread) has been too deeply hurt physically & psychologically to stay in Middle Earth. And Frodo was a true hero, I feel. There are many different kinds of heroism in this story. (topic for another thread). He cannot heal there, but may be able to in the undying lands. Same for Bilbo, but to a much smaller degree. Gandalf leaves because Sauron is defeated and his job is done.

  5. Sauron may have figured out that someone found the ring - Pippin? Aragorn? - but it never crosses his evil mind that they will try to destroy it. He naturally assumes they would try to use it to usurp him.

  6. Rohan is simply a different, independent culture. Middle Earth was a big place.

  7. Gandalf doesn’t use his magic more because his role is to aid, to inspire, to encourage, to lead. Magic doesn’t really have a big role in the big picture - one of the reasons I like the story.

  8. Yes, Saruman was originally good, the greatest of the wizards. Pride, lust for power did him in.

  9. The normal people you mention are indeed that - peoples from the east and south that Sauron recruited. Some were enticed to follow him; others enslaved.

  10. There are “good gods” in the Middle Earth cosmology - but they prefer to stay out of things directly. They don’t want to rule created beings as Sauron does.

Well, I read the Hobit, LotR and the Simirilian…but its been a LONG time. I’ll take a shot at some of these.

  1. Does the ring actually give the bearer any power other than invisibility? Certainly that can be useful, but not quite enough to call it “The Ring of Power.” It’s one thing that people want it so much because it’s cursed so that they want it. But what can it really do for them?

The ring grants powers according to the barers abilities. To those unschooled in magic, it grants invisibility. To those of greater lore and power, it enhances their powers. In addition, its used to control the OTHER rings of power, and subdue them to the will of the ring barer. It can unmake or take over the works of the other rings of power. In addition, it has other powers, less well defined. It can somehow create armies or at least marshal large forces.

  1. The battle for Helm’s Deep seems to be a big deal, but Sauron’s force basically gets its ass handed to it. How is Mordor able to get it together for an equally big (bigger?) battle in Return. And don’t the two battles seem a little too similar? Sieges against big forts. Also, rather than extended, wide-spread wars, these seem more like just one-off battles—is that a correct understanding?

Well, it was Saruman, not Sauron who was defeated at Helms Deep. And mostly that defeat (in the book) was due to his pissing off the Ents and the timely arrival of Gandolf.

In the movie the two battles seem similar because a lot of the detail was lost in the translation to the screen. Basically in the books there is a huge war going on in the background involving all the various races. Unlike the movie, the Elves don’t show up to help at Helm’s Deep because they are hard pressed, like all the other races, by attacks on their own realm. Sauron does this to prevent anyone from coming to the assistance of Gondor, because he feels they are the key to victory. Take MT and pretty much win the war.

  1. At the battle of Helm’s Deep they say it’s 300 against 10,000 (before the Elves arrive; BTW, is that John Lovitz as the fat elf?). And the son is said to have a band of 2000 or so (although it seems like a lot less when they meet the heroes on the plain). Of course, a lot of them get killed. That doesn’t seem to equal that many reinforcements from Rohan for the final battle in Return, but in that movie it looks like a lot more, and they are able to defeat Sauron’s forces until the mercenaries arrive—what do you think?

Thats because Rohan was unprepared for war at all when Saruman launched his offensive. The warriors weren’t gathered at all, and many were fighting in various parts of the country (the West Fold, etc). Gandolf goes off to rally SOME of these fighters and bring them back to Helm’s Deep for the climax of the battle, but there are lots of warriors scattered around the country. Thats why it takes the king several days to send forth riders to gather the strength of Rohan to march to Gondors aid.

  1. In the movies Gimli seems mostly like useless comic relief. Does he play a more essential role in the books?

He’s a bit disappointing in the movie. In the book he plays a more serious role, but still fairly minor. The biggest thing with Gimli is his growing friendship with Legolas and his ability to put his mistrust and suspicion of Elves behind him and grow. He’s also a fairly nasty fighter in the book.
5. Are Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo supposed to be “dead” at the end of Return in some sense or another? Why is Frodo so eager to leave? He says there’s some pain or whatnot that hasn’t healed, etc., but that doesn’t seem like a very heroic sentiment, does it?

Tough one. Are they supposed to be ‘dead’? No, not in a strict sense. However, they are giving up their mortality by going to the undieing lands across the western sea (well, not Gandalf, but he’s a special case). Why is Frodo so eager to leave? Well, he’s wounded so deeply in the story that he is in constant pain. In addition, when the one ring goes, it takes a lot out of him. He can NEVER be healed because of this combination of factors. He stays around to help rebuild the Shire (its nearly completely destroyed in the book btw…no happy home coming there), and see things are set right, then he leaves.

  1. Why are the Elves so bent on leaving, anyway?

The elves powers were tied to the three rings of the Elf lords. When the one goes, it breaks that power and they begin to fade. They had been leaving ME for years before that though. This is complicated but has to do with the fact that they originally COME from the undieing lands across the western sea…its their real home land. They loved ME but it wasn’t really their home. The last straw of course is when their power is broken and they begin to fade.

  1. So, Sauron and the Nazgul know that someone has the ring and that he probably wants to destroy it. Don’t you think a few guards in and around Mt. Doom could have helped prevent the destruction of their ring?

Sauron certainly DOESN’T know that someone is trying to destroy the ring. It simply never occurs to him. He thinks there is a power struggle going on between the wise on the side of ‘good’ and that eventually one of the mighty will throw down the others and claim the ring for him/her self. Its what he would do. His entire war is in the hope that he will cause the one with the ring to make a mistake and move too fast…and their by let Sauron reclaim the ring before the new ring master can figure out how to fully wield it (it will take quite a long time to master the ring appearently). Thats why no guards around Mt. Doom.

  1. Also, are the Nazgul blind or retarded? In Towers Frodo holds up a ring so that the Naz gets a look, but this extremely powerful entity is deterred from pursuing Frodo when his dragon takes one arrow to the neck. Not very persistent. Hmm…. Also, since these bad dudes are unkillable (except by women, it seems), why don’t they get down on the ground and systematically root out all opponents, including Frodo?

Well, thats from the movie. In the book, the only time they really get close to Frodo and know he has the ring was at Weather Top, and they weren’t all there…and Aragon WAS, and he has powers of his own. They basically settle for stabbing him with a Morgul knife in the hopes of turning Frodo into a wraith and getting the ring. They never really get close to him again after that, though I suppose there are some near misses. Certainly, if it was like in the book and the king of the ring wraiths had SEEN the ring he would have done everything he could to get it…no matter what.

  1. Is Rohan supposed to be kinda-sorta inferior to Gondor? Kindof the unfunky, unfancy little brother? BTW, I thought the realistic and beautiful architecture/effects of Gondor were the best thing in all three flicks. Truly amazing.

Ya, they are kind of inferior I suppose. They are barbarians (or semi-barbarians I suppose) to Gondors civilization, culture, etc. There is a whole thing about ‘high men’ and ‘low men’…the men of Gondor WERE ‘high men’ and some still are (like Aragon), and the men of Rohan are ‘low men’.

Think of Gondor as Imperial Rome, and Rohan as certain allied germanic tribes. Thats basically what they were…nomadic horse tribes that moved into the area. In an earlier war, Gondor was hard pressed on its eastern flank and the Rohirim came to their aid. In gratitude, Gondor gives the Rohirim the Mark to have as their own, and gets oaths of fealty and alliance out of them.

  1. Why does Gandolf not use his magic more? Also, don’t you think his powers are rather ill-defined? No sense is given of his powers or limitations. If this were D&D he would be like a 20th level magic user (at least!) and capable of a lot, lot more magic to use against Sauron’s forces.

Very good question. It even gets better when you consider something from the book that wasn’t in the movie…Gandalf after his fall in Kazadum and fight with the Balrog and his ‘death’ gets one of the Elvin rings of power (forget which one). So, from that point on he is a wielder of one of the three. No idea why they down play Gandalf in the book. He actually has a much bigger role in the movie to be honest. In the book he doesn’t ride forth on his white horse to save Faramir fromt the Nazgul like in the movie. I guess Tolkien wanted them to resolve this thing without vast magical powers or something, but it was kind of a disappointment. He doesn’t even wack the Witch King for gods sake! :slight_smile:

  1. Was Saruman originally good? Why did he turn evil?

Yes, he was originally good…just like all the other wizards. Basically Saruman became facinated by the rings of power and made it his primary study. He wanted to re-discover the ability to create rings of power, and in fact actually did manage to make some lesser rings. That coupled with his taking over the observatory at Orthanc was his downfall. He figured out how to open up the observatory…and discovered one of the seeing stones, the palantir…and used it. While gazing forth he was captured by Sauron and this completed his corruption.

  1. Are there normal people living in Mordor, or is it all slimy Orcs and trolls? For example, during the scene before the Black Gate in Towers soldiers looking like normal humans march in and then search for the two hobbits when they hear a noise (although their faces are veiled, they are definitely not orcs).

No, there are farms and settlements way to the south in Mordor. Men live there and other things too. Its where they grow all the food and such (you noticed that all the lands in the movie were pretty well blasted and dead?).

  1. Sauron is like an evil god who can just walk around, etc.; but why isn’t there a similar good god?

Sauron was the lieutenant of a greater power who WAS an evil ‘god’. When this evil god was defeated by other ‘gods’ he fled for a time, then came back in a fair disguise as a wise one. Originally he helped the Elves, and showed them how to create the rings of power (they created the three on their own, but it was with his help). He also created rings of power for the Dwarves (the 7) and Men (the 9)…but then he betrayed them all by creating the One…a ring to master them all and enslave the free peoples of ME.

Hope any of this helps. By the time I finish this I’m sure tons of folks will have responded. :slight_smile:

-XT

Clarifications:

The wizardry of Gandalf and the “magic” of powerful Elves such as Galadriel etc. are inherent to their beings, not something they’ve acquired through schooling. A mortal who studied magic in Middle-earth would probably be an evil sorcerer, such as the Witch-King.

Mortals cannot give up their mortality and immortals cannot give their immortality, with very few exceptions. (Arwen’s family are special cases, although this is never explained in the films.)

All of the Elves were born in Middle-earth, although some of them have been to the West. Elves’ bodies were made to endure until the end of the world, but the world has been so grievously marred that they cannot abide there. Rivendell and Lorien were attempts to shut out the change and decay, but they are doomed to fail when the rings were destroyed.

Effectively, Mt. Doom was guarded until Aragorn deliberately drew Sauron’s armies out of Mordor. If he hadn’t done so, Frodo would have had no chance of reaching his destination, which was surrounded by a plain filled with enemy encampments.

The Wizards are there to encourage the people of Middle-earth, not to take over for them. That’s where Gandalf succeeded and Saruman failed. Also, Gandalf gets his ring centuries before the events of the book, he simply keeps it hidden. It is the ring of fire, and Cirdan gives it to him to “kindle” men’s courage.

Actually, the circumstances of Saruman’s downfall are never completely spelled out. It’s possible he bore the seeds of corruption from the beginning of his mission. We’re told that Galadriel opposed making him leader of the council, and she usually seems to know what she’s talking about.

It was Sauron himself who did all this, not his former master, who has been bound in “The Void” outside the physical world for many thousands of years.

A note on the “gods”: There is one God, who is utterly distinct from the powers sometimes called gods. He alone has the ability to create beings with souls and to reshape the world at will.

The magic of the elves was inborn in them, but still required lore and study to become great…else why would some be more powerful than others? Gandalf came from a separate ‘race’ created specifically as lore keepers for various aspects of ME. The Witch-king was simply a king of Numinor who was given one of the 9 rings of power and corrupted. After his corruption he delved greatly into the dark arts. However, there is an implicit thing in tolkens books that study and lore were vital to increase the power of the magic in an individual, and they repeatedly talk about the study of magic and magical lore.

Of course they can. It was implicit in the book that Frodo and Bilbo (and later Sam, and Gimli too) were in fact doing this (a place where they would live forever without pain or fear, etc etc). They can’t do it just because they want too, of course…its sort of by invatation only. In fact, in the Silmarilian, this is what brought about the original destruction of Numinor (which was kind of like Atlantis, where the ‘high men’ all lived)…they attempted to invade the western realm and thus gain immortality.

Read the Silmarilian. The elves came from the western realm…it was their true homeland. Individual elves may have been born in ME (in fact, a lot of them were, but not all…I think Galadrial and her husband, as well as Elron and some others were not in fact born in ME), but the RACE of elves came from the western realm…and thats why they wanted to go back. In fact, the COULD continue to abide in ME…and in the book, scattered remnants DID in fact stay in ME, to linger on. But with the breaking of their power when the three went, the majority chose to leave ME to man and sail back to their homeland.

It was ‘guarded’ only in the loosest sense of the word. Sauron had no idea it NEEDED to be guarded, as he had no idea anyone would actually try and destroy the ring. That was my point. The orc on the plain were there not to guard anything, but because they were the next army Sauron was assembling to throw at Gondor and the west. Thats all.

Thats certainly true…wizards were there as guardians and lore masters for different aspects of ME. I forget exactly why they were originally created and such (it was in the Silmarilian) but thats certainly what their purpose was. However, they DID (supposedly) have vast powers in their own aspect, and Gandalf certainly COULD have used his powers…but Tolkien chose not to have him do so overtly in the books.

Gandalf does NOT get the ring centuries before. They go into this in the book. He gets it from Galadrials husband, the king of Loth Lorien, after his ‘death and resurrection’. There is a very brief passage to this effect, and they go into it more in detail somewhere else (but I forget where…maybe one of the apendix or in one of the subsidary works about ME).

Again, they go into this in the book…but not explicitely. Gandalf is explaining about Sarumans knowledge and curiosity about the creation of rings of power. When Gandalf confronts Saruman in the first book, he see’s that Saruman has a ring of power of his own creation…Saruman basically TELLS Gandalf this. We know that he used his powers originally to open Orthanc, which had been locked by the kings of Gondor and was inaccessible…and make it his own. We also know he found one of the Palintir there…and that this is how Sauron captured him.

What I wrote might have been confusing. Yes, it was Sauron who did all the things I wrote…that was what I intended it to say. I can see why it would be confusing though. Basically, what it SHOULD have said was when Saurons dark master was defeated, Sauron fled…etc etc.

This is incorrect. In the Silmarilian there is an original Creator of the ‘song’ of the universe. One of the first things he creates are ‘children’ who can expand the ‘song’…and these children are definitely gods in their own right. They basically live in a kind of heaven, singing the songs of the universe…there IS no Earth at that point. In fact, its THEY who create the earth and all the beings in it. The creator is reveared and definitely more powerful, but this doesn’t take away from the other ‘gods’ powers and abilities. And Saurons dark master is one of these…originally one of the most powerful ‘singer’ and most brilliant, but dark. I forget exactly what Sauron WAS exactly, but he wasn’t a man…maybe he was of that second tier, the ‘angels’…I just don’t remember (nor do I remember the bewildering array of names for all these different classes of immortals…there were a LOT of them).

There is an entire war thats fought between these ‘gods’, the next tier down who are ‘angels’, the next tier down, the eldar elves, and so forth. Men for the most part side with the dark side…except Numinor. Most of the dark creatures were twisted forms of men, elves, ents, etc that inhabated the earth.

Really enjoying this. I’m dredging up half remember things about the books I read well over 2 decades ago. :slight_smile:

Reguards,
XT

To further answer number 3, it wasn’t 300 against 10000 at Helm’s Deep in the book, it was 2000 against 10000.

Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and Gandalf ride out with Theoden out of Edoras with 1000 Rohan soldiers on horseback. They ride north with the intention of meeting the forces of Isengard on the plains, but they are met by a retreating group of soldiers on the way, who claim that the battle at the Fords of Isen were lost.

The king and his men decide to retreat and hold a defense at Helm’s Deep, and Gandalf leaves to rally the now fleeing troops who were at the Fords of Isen.

When the king gets to Helm’s Deep, there is already a garrison of 1000 troops there, so with the king’s men added, they have a total of 2000.

As for how many Gandalf rallies, the number escapes me at the moment. I’d be willing to wager another 500 to 1000.

And for the ride of the Rohirrim towards Gondor, there was between 6000 and 8000 Rohan horsemen.

Actually only Eru can create things. He gave form to the imaginings of the Valar and placed it into time. So archangels are a bad description, but gods aren’t right either. Let’s leave it at “powers”. Sauron, Gandalf and the other wizards are members of the next order down the Maiar. Sauron was one of the most powerful and was corrupted and brought into the service of Morgoth back before elves and men walked middle earth.

Regarding question #13, I think FriarTed is pretty close to the mark. Tom Bombadil is arguably one of the most powerful characters in the entire series, but he is also irreverent and indifferent to the war and the ring. I think he may be intended to represent some sort of neutrality, but others have devoted far more time and effort on that subject than I will.

The lands in the West (Aman) were the lands of the deathless; it did not make you immortal to live there.

Elves appeared and lived in Middle Earth first. Some traveled to Aman and then some of those returned. The wearing of time and the passing of things they loved in Middle Earth caused them sorrow, so they went to the western lands.

Gandalf gets his ring the moment he steps off the ship he arrives in. So he’s had it for about 2000 years. He receives it from Cirdan the shipwright, not from Celeborn or Galadriel.

God I hate nit picking. sorry about that.

I don’t have the books in front of me, but I’m positive Gandalf is given Narya on his first arrival in Middle-Earth.

Well, maybe I’m wrong about Gandalf ring. I seem to recall he got it from the Lady Galadrials husband, but maybe I’m misremembering.

I know this is incorrect. I remember one of the ‘son’s’ defied Eru (I assume this is the name of the original Creator?) and created the Dwarves. Eru was upset and nearly ordered the ‘son’ to destroy them. I remember the scene where Durin is cowering as the ‘son’ approaches with a hammer to destroy him with tears in his eyes, but at the last moment he intervenes and instead puts Durin to sleep until AFTER the appearence of the Elves. From what I remember of the book, the ‘powers’ seems pretty god like to me.

I remember there were LOTs of tiers in creation…but its been a long time and frankly the book was VERY complicated.

I’m not sure about this. I seem to recall that Elves came from across the western sea, thats why they liked the boats. ME fairly empty, with ‘low men’ and the other remnants of the first dark lord. I remember the men of Numinor first discovering it and helping out the ‘low men’…at first. Later they subjurgated them. The Elves were there already (and dwarves), but again I seem to recall that the Elves migrated there. I could be wrong here. As I said, its been a rather long time.

Again, the implication was that it would…if not why would Bilbo, who was pretty much at deaths door, bother to go? Why would Frodo? The implication is that they would have all their pain and age lifted from them and pretty much live forever there in happyness. Least thats how I read it. I know the Numinorian sure thought it worked that way when they tried to invade it.

-XT

Galadriel is one of Middle-earth’s eldest beings, bears a ring of power, has seen the light of the Trees, and comes from one of the highest families among the Elves. Elrond is a scion of the High Kings of the Elves and also bears a ring of power. Legolas, by way of contrast, is a relatively young member of a lesser clan. Bloodlines and seniority are extremely important in Middle-earth. Beings that don’t accept the natural order (Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, Sauron, Nazgul) tend to get slapped down hard, although it can take a long time.

Gandalf’s powers have nothing to do with studying lore and everything to do with the fact that he is an incarnated Maia (angelic being). This is hinted at in Appendix B to LOTR and spelled out more specifically in other writings.

Frodo and Bilbo go to find healing, not to live forever.

“If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed.

The men who thought they could gain immortality were deceived by Sauron. Death is a gift from Eru (read “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” in LOTR), and only he can take it back.

Elves came from the East. Some, not all, had been to the West. For a brief history of Elves, follow the link: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/elves.html

Those who remained would dwindle and fade – not an acceptable fate for the High Elves, at least. Galadriel refers to this in the book when she refuses the Ring.

(From appendix B) “It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.

(Ibid) “Cirdan… welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return. ‘Take this ring, Master,’ he said, 'for your labours will be heavy, but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.” Mithrandir (Gandalf) arrives at the Grey Havens thousands of years before his fatal battle.

“Gandalf is explaining about Sarumans knowledge and curiosity about the creation of rings of power. When Gandalf confronts Saruman in the first book, he see’s that Saruman has a ring of power of his own creation…Saruman basically TELLS Gandalf this. We know that he used his powers originally to open Orthanc, which had been locked by the kings of Gondor and was inaccessible…and make it his own. We also know he found one of the Palintir there…and that this is how Sauron captured him.”

Saruman receives the keys to Orthanc from the steward of Gondor (explained in the appendices). Although he calls himself a ring-maker, we don’t know that his ring has any power.

This is incorrect. In the Silmarilian there is an original Creator of the ‘song’ of the universe. One of the first things he creates are ‘children’ who can expand the ‘song’…and these children are definitely gods in their own right. They basically live in a kind of heaven, singing the songs of the universe…there IS no Earth at that point. In fact, its THEY who create the earth and all the beings in it. The creator is reveared and definitely more powerful, but this doesn’t take away from the other ‘gods’ powers and abilities. And Saurons dark master is one of these…originally one of the most powerful ‘singer’ and most brilliant, but dark.

The “gods” (Valar) only fulfill Eru’s vision in creating Arda. He is the only one that knows its ultimate fate. Even Melkor’s discordant song is known first by Eru. This link might help you understand the relationship between Eru and the Ainur. They may be “gods” from a human perspective, but there is only one God. http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/ainur.html

Sauron was one of the Maiar, perhaps the mightiest of them.

Actually, Tolkien never settled on a satisfying explanation of the origin of Orcs. Elves, beasts and men were all considered as possible sources.

On preview, I see mention of the Dwarves. One of the Valar creates and animates their bodies, but they are soulless puppets until Eru gives them wills.

We’re delving pretty deeply into the history of Middle-earth, here. In the context of “The Lord of the Rings”, which is meant to be history “as seen by the little people”, much of what we’re talking about now is meant to remain a mystery.

Create things. I suppose it would be better if I said create living things. The dwarves were basically puppets. The dwarves cowered only after Eru gave them free will. Previous to that unless Aule was actively considering the dwarf fathers they didn’t do anything.

Then again, the two trees were explicitly created by the valar so my argument starts taking on water. :slight_smile:

All the children of Eru woke up in Middle Earth. The elves first, then dwarves and finally men. The Valar found the elves and lead the majority west. Some fell to the wayside, others made it into Aman. The Noldor left to reclaim their silmarils and got exiled by the Valar. Only following the overthrow of Morgoth are they allowed to return.

Think of it as a blessing. They are given a chance to live the remainder of their lives free of pain, sorrow or regret. But the gift of death was something the Valar couldn’t simply take away. Maybe QtM will drop by, he’s read the History of Middle Earth and may know. The Numenorians, however, were basically sent on a suicide mission by Sauron. He deluded the king into believing that men could live forever if only they possessed the Western Lands. Oddly enough, the men that landed apparently were cast into a deep sleep in an underground cavern and will return to fight with Morgoth when he returns.