Frodo wonders that himself. Galadriel points out that Frodo can now see things most folks can’t. While Frodo can see a mystic glowing ring on her hand, Sam sees a bare hand and a twinkle he attributes to stars showing between her fingers as she gestures.
Frodo also gains dreams which show the future or events in distant places. His ability to control Gollum comes from the One Ring (Yes, Gollum eventually betrays them. But he doesn't just snatch the Ring from Frodo or strangle him in his sleep during the long journey).
The Ring also can inspire terror in others. While rescuing Frodo from the tower, Sam closes his fist around the Ring to make sure he doesn't drop it. This draws on the power of the Ring, convincing a few orcs that Sam is strong, dangerous, and very tall.
#8
As others have said, this never happens in the books. Faramir figures out that the Fellowship was trying to destroy ‘a dread weapon of the Enemy’. He guesses that it corrupted Boromir and says ‘I would not take such a thing if I found it lying in the road.’. When he sees the Ring, he doesn’t try to take it. He simply sends Frodo, Sam and Gollum on their way.
Additionally, in the books, Aragorn carries the broken sword with him. The Tom Bombadill chapters from the books was never filmed. It’s an understandable decision. But, that segment had one major result-the Hobbits gain swords made by the ancient Numenoreans- magical weapons made specifically to fight the creatures of Sauron. So, when the Nazgul attack Weathertop, they expect to find a few defenseless Hobbits. Instead, they find the heir of the man who cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand, holding the same sword, and that the Hobbits have somehow gained weapons that may be capable of harming the Nazgul. Frodo begins calling out Elvish names to give himself bravery. Though he doesn’t realize it, these are mystic words which affect the Black Riders much as the Nazgul’s shrieks affect others.
Definitely delving too deep…probably disturb a balrog soon.
My question to those who are saying that Gandalf had one of the 3 for ‘thousands’ of years is, how does this make any kind of logical sense? Here is Gandalf with one of the 3 of the mightiest rings of power, which he has for thousands of years. Why wouldn’t HE be the leader of the wizards then (aside from the one controlling ring, the 3 were THE most powerful artifacts in ME…they were made from the 3 Simiril stones after all)? Why Saruman? When Saruman confronts Gandalf in Orthanc in book one, he pretty easily bests him and imprisons him at the top of the tower, right? How could he do this if Gandalf had one of the three?? The ring couldn’t possibly ONLY have the power to ‘kindle mens hearts’…it was an ELVIN ring of power after all.
In addition, when Gandalf is ‘killed’ in Moria and returns, he is obviously MUCH more powerful (and the first time the red ring of power is mentioned in the book is at the siege of MT…after these events). Finally, why did Frodo, who spotted Galadrials ring immediately on seeing her (and knew her heart as well, as she explained), only see Gandalfs ring AFTER they were reunited again? Why wouldn’t he have seen it all along, as he obviously COULD see the 3. He saw Elronds ring as well. I would figure he could spot Gandalf with it early on, but he doesn’t see it on him until him and Sam are rescued and taken to the tent and healed by the King, etc etc.
The way I recall (and I could be completely wrong here…and probably am from what I’m seeing), Gandalf is returned FROM the west after traveling down dark roads and out of time and all that. He is imbued with a new power. I remember this part vaguely:
But I thought this was when Gandalf returned from his ‘death’ in moria. Where are you getting that THIS time was when Gandalf FIRST arrived at the Grey Havens? Am I just reading this wrong??
As to the deathless lands…well, I could certainly be wrong there. Seems a pointless trip for Bilbo at least to take (and Sam too later) as they are close to death at that point from old age. Why bother for maybe a few weeks of life? Why didn’t Bilbo quietly just die in Rivendale, and Sam in the Shire if that was the case?
The two battles shown are fairly similar. Given that Sauron is interested in obliterating the humans and elves and dwarves, I don’t quite see why he would attack areas of low population, like villages and remote outposts. Also, Gondor is the city which built the fortifications around Mordor: Cirith Ungol and the Black Gates were originally designed to keep Sauron’s forces hemmed in not keep his enemies out. (Sauron holds long grudges.) Add that to the fact that Isildur, heir of Gondor, was the one who chopped off Sauron’s Ring, and that all of the resistance is coordinated from Gondor, I can’t think of a better place for him to attack—or a better place from which Gondor should defend. They’re practically neighbors, anyhow; check the map. Where else should the battle have been?
Legolas and Gimli really aren’t essential in the books. They provide a measure of characterization for how Elves and Dwarves view the world, and there’s a certain ass-kicking quotient, but neither one actually moves the plot. They hang around with Aragorn most of the time and say, “Yeah, what he said.” Gimli makes some obligatory comments about pretty rocks and caves, and Legolas makes similar comments about pretty trees and forests. They exist in the books to provide insight into their races as we watch their friendship grow. Don’t get me wrong, they’re great characters in the books, but they aren’t essential to the plot. The only thing Legolas really does is talk everyone’s way into Lothlorien.
The books state a few times that the Witch-King, Nazgul Numero Uno, would not be killed by the hand of man. This was an ancient prophecy, and not a spell. As far as I know, the other Nazgul were not similarly unkillable. It just so happens that the Witch-King was the only one that was killed. (The rest simply vanished into nothingness when Sauron’s power went poof.) I’m pretty sure they didn’t simply thrash around until everything was dead because their mounts could be killed, and a Black Rider isn’t nearly as scary as a Black Hitchhiker.
The “wizards”/istar refer only to the maiars who arrived in Middle-earth in the Third Age. There were 5, if I remember – Saruman, Mithrandir/Gandalf, Radagast, and 2 others who aren’t discussed in the stories. Cirdan the Shipwright secretly gave the Ring of Fire to Gandalf when Gandalf first arrived in Middle-earth. I don’t remember if there was a reason for it except that Cirdan felt Gandalf was the wisest of the 5 and it would help him fight against Sauron. I don’t know how long the Third Age lasted, but this would indicate that Gandalf had the ring way longer than before the beginning of the War of the Ring, which closed out the Third Age.
When the Council of the Wise was being created, Galadriel & Elrond actually preferred Gandalf over Saruman to become the chief. But probably because Saruman was the oldest (first of the maiar to arrive) and Gandalf acknowledged him as the chief of the wizards, Saruman took the post.
The Rings of Power were set with gemstones, but I don’t know believe they had much to do with the original silmarils, 2 of which were lost. The ring doesn’t give unlimited power. This is a guess, but as others have mentioned, it enhances whatever abilities you may already have. Gandalf’s “powers” veered toward mastery over fire, and the ring could account for that. The elves didn’t use their rings because when they put them on at first, they realised what Sauron was doing in controlling the ringbearers. So they removed them to prevent Sauron from enslaving them as well.
The Elven rings were not weapons. Their primary power is to preserve and heal. Elrond says something about this in FOTR. They also aren’t made from the Silmarils, by the way. Two of those were lost and the third went into orbit. Saruman was probably the most powerful of the wizards to begin with.
How much is it an actual power boost, as opposed to Gandalf acting more boldly and openly? Gandalf has sort of been working in the dark, not always knowing if he’s doing the right thing. He’s just received a major pat on the back from God: not only did he send him back from death, he gave him a field promotion from Grey to White. That’s got to be a major confidence-booster. Also, the more mortals do for themselves, the more higher beings seem willing to help. It may be that Frodo and Aragorn’s bravery and devotion liberate Gandalf to use more power, but that’s pure speculation.
Galadriel says something about Frodo being a Ringbearer and “one who has seen the Eye”. He doesn’t see her ring until after he has seen the Eye of Sauron in the mirror. I don’t believe he saw Elrond’s until much later.
Gandalf only comes through the Grey Havens once. After his death, he returns to life right where he fell and takes the Eagle Express to Lorien.
Although Bilbo doesn’t seem to suffer as Frodo did, he does express a desire to see the Ring again, so it has had an effect on him. Sam too may have some spiritual wounds that need healing. Remember also that the Far West is a bit of what the world would have been like if it had never been tainted, beautiful and filled with High Elves and, um, gods. I think that would be worth seeing. Unlike Frodo, Bilbo and Sam have led long full lives and so won’t be giving anything up.
However – I like to think they made the trips for Frodo’s sake. It would be heart-wrenching for Frodo to leave behind everything he ever knew. Having another Hobbit along, one that he knew and loved, would ease the journey for him. It’s also nice to think he lived long enough to see Sam again, and hear news of the Shire, learn all about Sam’s children and hear what had become of Merry, Pippin, and the rest of the Fellowship.
In the films, I know there’s talk of destroying the race of Men. I think Tolkien’s intent, however, was to have Sauron try to subjugate Men, not destroy them.
I have the feeling Gimli was included because Tolkien was told to write a sequel to “The Hobbit”, and it’s hard to imagine a sequel to “The Hobbit” without at least one Dwarf in it. But that’s just me. In any case, he does provide some great moments along the way.
Good point. In the film it looks like Eowyn is able to kill the Witch-King because she is “no man”, as if she’s discovered a legal loophole in his invulnerability contract. In the book, her sword would not have harmed him had Merry not softened him up with a special dagger that was made for just such a purpose. Of course, that shouldn’t take anything away from her courage in standing up to him.
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The Ring gives power according to the stature of the user. For the weak, invisibility and prolonged life, plus certain hightened senses are all that can be expected. However, for the strong and wise, the Ring gives one power to control others. Most perilously, it gives the wearer the ability to see and control the minds of the bearers of the lesser Rings (such as the Three of the Elves and the Nine of Men). For those allied against Sauron, one of the greatest fears if he recovered the ring was that, in addition to restoring all of his native power, he would be able to learn all of his enemies’ secrets and manipulate them to his advantage.
It isn’t Sauron’s force, but Sauruman’s. It isn’t at all clear from the feature film, but the Ents and the Huorns play a big role in Rohan’s victory at Helm’s deep. Without them, Theoden and his army likely would have fallen. Also, what isn’t at all mentioned in the movie is that there are other battles all over the place: In Lorien, in Mirkwood, in Dale, etc. Helm’s Deep and Minas Tirith are significant in that they are centres of human resistance to Sauron (primarily because the Gondorians and the Rohirrim, especially the former, are of high lineage).
How the logistics are handled in the movie is tough to discern, but I guess it’s safe to assume that Eomer (who takes the place of Erkenbrand in the book) and those loyal to him make up a significant portion of Rohan’s fighting force. There wasn’t enough time to muster Rohan for the beginning of the Battle of Helm’s deep, or the Battle of the Pelenor fields, but after Saruman’s forces were defeated, everyone could be rounded up.
The butchery of Gimli’s character in the movies is tough to take. Only in the last film does he get to redeem himself a little, but by then the damage is done. Needless to say, Gimli is much more dignified and formidable, as written by Tolkien. Neither Gimli nor Legolas are all that significant in the grand scheme of things, except to represent the vanishing races of Middle Earth in the last great battle of the Old World, before the Fourth Age and the dominion of Men.
The movies pretty much irredemably fucks this one up, too. No, they are not dead, at least not at first. Gandalf can’t really “die” anyway, because he’s an angel clad in a human body (I’m serious), though his corporeal form can be (and was, by the Balrog) slain. Bilbo and Frodo are taken by ship on the Straight Road (way too much to get into), to the Ancient West, to spend the rest of their days in bliss on Tol Eressea, an island a bit East of Valinor, a kind of Middle-Earth-Style Avalon. Being mortal, they must eventually die, even though they are in the “Undying Lands”. Frodo is keen to go because he’s nearly been ruined by his quest to destroy the Ring, and to stay in Middle Earth would mean to spend his old age suffering terribly. In the movie, he complains of a sore shoulder, and then POOF, he takes ship. Lame. It’s much easier to comprehend what’s going on in he book. Bilbo too has suffered great harm due to his long exposure to the Ring, and also is given the grace to sail West. It’s a kind of mortal purgatory, a period of healing that they are fleeing to, before they die.
Mainly because staying in Middle Earth is painful to them (lots of old memories, most of them bittersweet or just plain tragic), and because, with the proliferation and inevitable domination of Men, they’ll be increasingly marginalized and eventually squeezed out. Fortunately, they have a place they can go. Dwarves and Hobbits won’t be so lucky, but Tolkien only hints at their eventual extinction.
Another cinematic fuckup. Sauron didn’t look for someone to destroy the Ring because he never, ever imagined that anyone would want to. The natural thing for the finder of the Ring to do would be to try to use it; eventually this person might vie even with Sauron for rule of Middle Earth. Hence Sauron’s urgency to start a war, even though he probably could have used a little more time for preparation. Sauron figured his enemies would be fighting among themselves for control, with the main instigator in posession of (and under the corrumpting influence of) the Ring. Sauron figured he had to strike and strike hard, to put down his potential rivals before they got a chance to master the Ring’s full power. They way they handle this in the film is for Gandalf to have this bizarre epiphany: “Oh shit! I sent Frodo into a buzzing hive of orcs! He’s a goner! We’re doomed!” “Not so fast!” says Aragorn, “Let’s create a diversion so Frodo can succeed!” Brilliant! In truth, the final challenge before the gates of Mordor is meant to focus Sauron’s attention away from Mount Doom, but it’s assumed he’s not paying especially close mind to that part of his realm to begin with. It’s pretty much just a precaution, not an absolute imperative. Anyway, the forces of Good figure, if Frodo fails, we’re buggered anyway, so we may as well go to what will be certain death if Sauron gets a chance to hit us, and see what happens.
In the books, nothing even remotely like this happens. The Nazgul don’t have a clue where the Ring is, until Frodo is in the bowels of Mt. Doom and it’s too late. I don’t know why this scene was filmed. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, bloody fucking stupid.
According to Tolkien’s history, Rohan was once a territory of Gondor (which they called Calenardhon). This territory was overrun by Hun-like invaders from the East. Far North up the Anduin (the river they canoe down) was the ancestral home of the Rohirrim, which kind of resemble some kind of idealized vision of the original Aryans, with a kind of Gothic language and Dress code, a beautiful, if unrefined, race of horsemen and warriors. Supposedly, in the deep dark past, the ancestors of the Rohirrim and the Numenoreans (from whom the Gondorians are descended) were one and the same, so there is a natural affinity, though the branches of these races have been sundered for literally thousands of years. Anway, the Rohirrim were also feeling the heat from these Eastern barbarians, so the leader of Gondor, Cirion, and the leader of the Rohirrim, Eorl, form an alliance and drive out the foreign hoards. In return for saving their bacon, Gondor gives the Rohirrim the more-hospitable Calendardhon, and the Rohirrim settle there for good and rename it “Rohan”. The are less refined than the Gondorians traditionally (due to the latte’s Numenorian heritage, which alas, I can’t get into), but, as Faramir explains to Frodo in the book, the percieved difference is much greater than the real one by the time the War of the Ring takes place. The Gondorians have interbred with “lesser men” so much, they’re little different than their Rohirrim allies, for all intents and purposes. They’re now mostly lesser heirs of an ancient, mighty, but fallen race.
A long, LONG time ago the angelic Powers used their, well, power, to greatly influence the Elves in an attempt to protect them from the primeval Dark Lord, Morgoth (Sauron’s old master). The results, despite their good intentions, were pretty much a disaster (way too much to get into). Having learned their lesson, but unwilling to just let Sauron take over unchallenged, they send the Istari (the Wizards to you and me), lesser members of their Order, who take on humble human forms (which weakens them in mind and power), to act as emmissaries and advisors. The Istari weren’t allowed to reveal who they truly were, and also weren’t supposed to reveal their inner strength except in gravest need. There were five Wizards, supposedly, and only Gandalf remained true to his calling.
Yes, he was good, though ambitious. His ambition, and impatience, was his undoing. After thousands of years of plodding around, he got tired of sitting on his duff waiting for Sauron to strike. He set up shop in Isengard, and started studying the lore of the Rings in earnest. Soon it dawned on him that the Ring was in the Anduin, not far from his fortress, but instead of trying to work with the other Wizards and the likes of Elrond and Galadriel, he became ensnared by the Ring’s temptation (which should give some idea of how enticing the thing could be for the powerful). Tolkien kind of hints that Saruman has made some Rings of his own, but that idea never really gets more than a passing mention. At any way, it seems, in an attempt to defeat Sauron by understanding him, Saruman is (maybe unconsciously) influenced by his legacy, and becomes a second rate Sauron (with much greater ambitions) in the end.
I don’t think anyone but the perverted creatures bred by Sauron (orcs, trolls and the like) live in Mordor, but Sauron made alliances with “normal” humans who lived South and East of Mordor. Sauron was OK with humans as long as they pretty much worshipped him like a god and did what he told them to. Because these evil humans resemble North Africans and Huns, respectively, Tolkien gets a lot of grief (some of it perhaps deserved, it’s debatable) for being a racist.
There is. He’s called God. Remember when Gandals says “Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it,” and “There are other forces at work in this world Frodo, besides the will of Evil”? What do you figure he meant? If you guess “God”, you’re right. Though Gandalf certainly wasn’t privvy to His plan, he guesses rightly that the incredible accident of Bilbo finding the Ring (rather than, say, some orc finding it and carting it off to Mordor) is no accident at all, and that God was tipping the scales of fate just a tad in favor of Good, as He is prone to do at various critical junctures. Of course it’s up to the Free Peoples to take up the challenge once given the nudge (in accordance with Free Will), but God is still, and always, at work.
There is no proper religion in The Lord of the Rings, and God is never mentioned. Tolkien meant his stories about Middle Earth to be a kind of pre-Judeo/Christian mythological history of the world we inhabit. Naturally, the struggle of Good vs. Evil has been around since the Fall (which Tolkien concocted his own version of), and is played out in his stories. Though Tolkien never meant his stories to be a Christian allegory, he was himself a devout Catholic, and imbued the epic struggles of his characters with Christian ethics.
Great replies, and it seems most everything I could say has been covered (most of it multiple times). However, I’d like to expand slightly on the Maiar.
Eru Illuvatar created ‘the children of his thought’ before anything else. There were two kinds: Valar–the powers and Maiar, their servants and helpers. Several Maiar are important in the history of Arda. Two of them are responsible for steering the sun and the moon across the sky, for instance. One of them is Elrond’s great grandmother. As Aragorn is descended (through hundreds of generations) from Elrond’s brother Elros, he also has a tiny bit of Maiar blood.
Melkor (later renamed Morgoth–‘the Dark Enemy of the World’) was the original Dark Lord. He was the greatest of the Valar, and he tried to control all of Arda. He was eventually defeated (a couple of times) by the action of the other Valar, with the help of the Maiar, Elves, Dwarves and Men. Sauron was a Maiar and one of Morgoth’s middle managers back then. He was very, very clever, but not really one of the greatest of his kind.
In the Uttermost West, Gandalf was a Maiar name Olorin. He was acknowledged as the wisest of all his kind. Saruman was known as Curinir (I think, may be misremembering), which means ‘one of skill’, and he was considered the cleverest of the Maiar.
Tolkien often liked to point out that intelligence is not the same as wisdom, and power is not the goal of the wise. Gandalf was wise enough to know that using all his magic or overusing Narya (his ring) would not lead the people of Middle Earth to freedom from evil. He knew that only a Man could save Mankind, so he backed the man fated to be King of the Men of the West, Aragorn.
Also, on the subject of where the elves came from, they did indeed wake up in the far east of Middle Earth. Many of them did go to Valinor in Aman, and some of those returned. The original high-king of all the Elves, Ingwe, still rules in Valinor. One of his fellows, who woke up at his side at the Water of Awakening uncounted years (could be in the 100’s of thousands, though) before the War of the Ring was Cirdan the Shipwright, who gave Narya to Gandalf. He was the oldest Elf in all of Tolkien’s stories who had never seen the Undying Lands. Galadriel was one of the last of the elves who had returned from Aman to still abide in Middle Earth. Most of the others died in the wars against Morgoth. It was rather a significant event when Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel all took ship to the west, even if they hadn’t been bringing two heroic hobbits with them.
Now, where’s that balrog? Ecthelion of the Fountains would like a word with the fire spirit.
Okay, I have absolutely no business jumping in here because there are obviously many people with a lot more knowledge on the topic than I have. Then again, I seem to be missing a dimension that was important to me reading the book, namely the metaphorical element. (I guess that kind of thing has a tendency to come out stronger in books than in films).
So two points to that might shed some light on a few of the questions and excuse me if this is stating the obvious.
The ring seems to me to be basically an example of “power corrupts”. What it is is simply “more power than you can handle”. Everyone who thinks that they can handle it are obviously mistaken. The morally upstanding folk all refuse to even touch it. Saruman, for example, gets upset with the power potential and quickly looses all sense of morality.
So far pretty uncontroversial, or so I hope.
The Grey Havens and the land in the west. I think they ARE about dying but metaphorically so. Consider that they are like paradise and that they people don’t tend to come back from them. Furthermore it is seen as a great tragedy that the elves go there and as far as your average Middle Earther is concerned they are dying out. Frodo is unable to live as he was before so decides to leave. What I’m trying to get at is that you melodrama die a little when you leave somewhere, and that the overtones of “no return” and “paradise” do a lot to emphasise that. So it’ not death, but there are certainly overtones IMO.
I guess these kind of things are down to what an individual chooses to read into something, but I thought I would throw it in anyway.
I think that’s right, keeping in mind that in Tolkien’s own belief system (Catholic), death is not the end for mortals but, in a sense, the beginning.
From Tolkien’s notes: “It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid.”
…and…
“The exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressëa after their ‘removal’ must be dubious and unexplained” as must the question of “how ‘mortals’ could go there at all. …The sojourn of Frodo in Eressëa – then on to Mandos? – was only an extended form of this. Frodo would eventually leave the world (desiring to do so). So that the sailing in ship was equivalent to death.”
estel = hope
Aman, Eressëa = parts of the Undying Lands
Mandos = Halls of Waiting, sort of a way-station for souls
Nitpick: Sauron was the “greatest and most trusted, and most perilous of Melkor’s servants” per the Silmarillion. Since Melkor/Morgoth corrupted many Maiar, it’s reasonable to infer that Sauron was at least one of the mightiest of his kind (although it’s also possible that the strongest were not corrupted).
Nitpick 2: In the book, Cirdan remains at the Grey Havens, but the departure of Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf still marks the end of an age.
Even in his betrayal, the One Ring still holds sway over Gollum. Remember, in their penultimate struggle, while climbing up the mountain, Frodo says to Gollum “If you touch me again, you will be flung yourself into the Fire” (or words to that effect; I don’t have the books handy). And that’s exactly what happens. So in the end, it’s a curse delivered by the power of the Ring which ends up destroying it.
He’s never mentioned directly in the main body of the LotR, but there are at least four references to him. First, where Gandalf says that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and that there are Powers in this world other than those of evil. None of the Valar even have that much subtlety and power, which leaves only Illuvatar. Second, when Gandalf confronts the Balrog, he says “I am a servant of the Secret Fire”. It isn’t clear from the LotR, but in the Silmarillion, we learn that the Secret Fire is what we would call the Holy Spirit, that aspect of God which gives reality to things. Third, while Gandalf is “dead”, he walks naked beyond the circles of the world, outside of time and space, before being sent back. The Valar have neither power nor authority outside of time and space, again leaving Illuvatar as the only being who could have sent him back. Fourth, in the Appendices, at Aragorn’s death, Arwen says that she does not understand how death can be the gift of the One to men. The One is, of course, God, and we’re told in the Silmarillion that death was his gift to men.
The mithril shirt does not cover Frodo’s entire body. In the book, he gets it in the neck: “When she’s hunting, she just gives 'em a dab in the neck and they go as limp as boned fish, and then she has her way with them. D’you remember old Ufthak? We lost him for days. Then we found him in a corner; hanging up he was, but he was wide awake and glaring. How we laughed!”
Yes but in the movie he seems to get it square in the back. It’s definetly not in his neck.
Maybe she hit him below the shirt? In the ass?
Pervy Hobbit fancing giant spider!
Yes, you are right, but I meant the story, not the appendices; and even then he is never named (Eru, or Illuvatar), leaving the reader to guess who “The One” is exactly.
Nitpick of my own: Gandalf never says he leaves “the Circles of the World”. In fact, according to the Silmarillion, that is impossible for one of the Ainur who descended into Arda, as they were bound to Arda, just as the spirits of the Elves are. An exception was made for Melkor/Morgoth, who was ejected via the “Door of Night”, (which is guarded against his return by Earendil), but he never had permission to enter Arda, nor charged with its guardianship, in the first place. Of all the offspring of Eru’s thought that have inhabited “The Circles of the World”, only the spirits of Men can leave them. That is why, for Men, death should have been a Gift, instead of seeming like “Doom”. Humankind are, as Aragorn told Arwen on his deathbed “…not bound to the Circles of the World, and beyond them is more than memory.” Sadly, Arwen wasn’t comforted, and passed away in Lorien of sorrow. A major annoyance for me, re: the films, was that Elrond came off like such a prick. The poor guy knew what Arwen was in for, and I imagine it broke his heart. Chances are, he foresaw it clearly, but he couldn’t reveal what he knew, lest he alter the course of fate and meddle with affairs that he would have rightly recognized as being way more important than his own parental concerns. In the movies he’s actively trying to dissuade both of them, for no other explicit reason than Arwen isn’t Aragorn’s type. A major thematic flaw, and a great injustice to Elrond’s character.
Anyway, back on topic: What Gandalf does say about his death is “The darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell…Naked I was sent back-for a brief time, until my task was done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top.” What this means is that Gandalf was mortally wounded by his fight with the Balrog, and his spirit fled his body, wandering circuitously back to Valinor, perhaps to the halls of Mandos for a while. It is assumed that he came before the council of the Valar again, just as he (Olorin) had done long ago. It appears that Olorin is somehow transformed. I can only speculate, but I think its quite likely (given the fact Tolkien states explicitly that no Ainu of any rank can change the fundamental nature of created beings) that Tolkien felt Eru Himself granted special grace to Olorin in recognition of his faithfulness and self-sacrifice. Olorin, now wiser and more powerful, is sent back to the peak of Caradhras, unclad at first in bodily form, where he lies, listening to the whispery tidings of the world, until he is slowly clothed again in flesh, and Gwaihir carries him off to find Shadowfax.
What all of you are obviously failing to take into account is the fact that Salmar-Lirillo not only was the twin-brother of Ómar-Amillo, but was also known as Golthadriel!! And that Gwerlum was was Ungoliant’s original name!
(Cite: HOMES I, aka BOLT1)
This shows implicitly that language structure was the driving force behind the entire narrative, and that JRRT would have been served better if he had stuck by his original plan to make Valinorean the default tongue of the Vanyar in the blessed…
OK, maybe I’m delving a bit too deep into the lore. I’ll stop.
I would have been less irked by this part myself if they’d used the damned Palantir, like Aragorn actually did in the book. He openly challenged Sauron through the Palantir Pippen filched, making him believe that the Heir of Isildur indeed had the ring and would bring it to use at the battle at the gates. THAT was the reason Sauron emptied Mordor for that battle - because he was 100% sure Aragorn had it, so A) there was no reason to guard Mount Doom; there was no longer any doubt about the location of the ring and B) he wanted a decisive victory against someone who could potentially use the ring to devastating effect.
When they included the palantir in the movie I looked ahead eagerly for the challenging of Sauron and was disappointed. And the fall of Denethor was disappointing in the same way - there was no explanation for his degradation, whereas in the book, the revelation that he’d been conversing with Sauron through HIS Palantir was very satisfying, motivation-wise.
Dude, you are in Geek Central, no question, and I don’t doubt watching grown men and women drone on about such minutia as if we were debating the finer points of Biblical literature could justifiably illicit a fair amount of ridicule. I’m fully aware, and I’m OK with it. Tolkien’s works have some pretty significant flaws, no question, and I never expect that Tolkien will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the likes of Melville, Joyce, Shakespeare, or any of the other greatest-of-greats. I myself find the title “Author of the Century” to be completely over the top, unless you’re focusing on sales.
But I love these books. I love them in a way that makes no sense even to myself. There is something simply magnificent about it all, and I’ve given up trying to justify it. If it makes me a hopeless geek, it’s the price I must pay.
So, by all means, start a thread bashing people such as myself and have a ball. But in the confines of this discussion, can we just be left to have our fun without the train of thought being hijacked with derision? I’m not offended personally, and I do have a sense of humor about these things. I’d even be happy to join in on some self-deprecating mirthfulness. But there is, as they say, a time and a place, perhaps?
