Lotr questions

Cafe Society
1

I have read the book and seen the movie, but I am still a little shady about some points.

  1. What is gandalf? Human? elf?

  2. Does he have one of the rings?

  3. What was Sauron? Human? elf? demon thingy?

  4. If the people with rings knew that there was a master ring that could control them all- why didn’t they destroy their rings?

  5. Is Galadriel as creepy as she was as the movie potrayed her in the book or was that just the movie makers having fun with effects?

  6. In the movie why does frodo get all wonky when he fingers, fondles, or whatever you would like to call it, the ring? Bilbo didn’t appear to get all sweaty and and lost in thought- Does the ring just effect people differently?

  7. Was there some particular reasopn everyone in Lothlorien looked alike(blonde straight hair) Is that where Legolas is from?

Anyone care to shed any light?

2

I’ll take a stab.

Gandalf is one of the immortal spirit beings called the Maiar. Sort of a lower ranking angel - Below the Valar, but above the Elves, Dwarves, and Men.

Yes. The ring of fire, called Narya. I assume it’s connected to his power to use fire, but not necessarily the source of his power.

Sauron was also a Maia, as were the Balrogs.

As long as Sauron wasn’t in possession of his ring, the Three were safe to use.

Yes and no. Everybody was scared of her, and called her a witch, but she was mainly good at heart. Very interested in protecting her forest. And she didn’t turn green, but she was very sorely tempted when Frodo offered the Ring to her.

a) Bilbo didn’t know what the Ring was. Frodo did. Pressure.
b) Sauron didn’t know the Ring had been found when Bilbo had it - he thought it was lost. By the time Frodo got hold of the Ring, Sauron was actively searching for it, and it was trying to get home to Sauron.
c) Since the Ring was forged with Sauron’s power as an integral part of it, he could perceive the wearer, once he was actively trying to call it home.

They’re all elves. That’s pretty much what elves look like.
Legolas is the son of the King of the Forest Elves of Mirkwood - the ones who captured Bilbo, Thorin & Co. in The Hobbit.**
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3
  1. What is gandalf? Human? elf?

He’s what’s called a Maia, it’s something like an angel in Tolkien’s mythology.

  1. Does he have one of the rings?

Yes.

  1. What was Sauron? Human? elf? demon thingy?

Sauron is also a Maia. Except he’s turned to evil, so he’s like a fallen angel, or demon.

  1. If the people with rings knew that there was a master ring that could control them all- why didn’t they destroy their rings?

Only the Elves knew about the One Ring. As Sauron put it on, they sensed it and removed their Rings. Sauron waged war against the Elves and recovered the Rings he had a hand in creating, which was all but the Three Celebrimbor forged without Sauron’s input. Once he recovered those 16 Rings, he gave nine of them to men, and seven to dwarves. The men became the Ringwraiths, but the dwarves were harder to subvert, although the Rings amplified their natural avarice. Once the One Ring was cut from Sauron’s hand, the Elves were again able to use their Rings without interference from Sauron.

  1. Is Galadriel as creepy as she was as the movie potrayed her in the book or was that just the movie makers having fun with effects?

Sort of. She is a very powerful (Tolkien used the word perilous) Elf-queen, and was greatly tempted by the Ring’s influence. Peter Jackson chose to represent this in film with some cheesy CGI and bad sound processing. The scene played out basically the same in the book, though.

  1. In the movie why does frodo get all wonky when he fingers, fondles, or whatever you would like to call it, the ring? Bilbo didn’t appear to get all sweaty and and lost in thought- Does the ring just effect people differently?

Sauron was more active in the world and bending his thought upon the Ring which made it have a more pronounced effect on the wearer, as it was trying to return to it’s Master.

  1. Was there some particular reasopn everyone in Lothlorien looked alike(blonde straight hair) Is that where Legolas is from?

Legolas is from Mirkwood. He’s the son of the Elvenking from The Hobbit. Peter Jackson decided to represent the Elves of Lothlorien as tall blonde dudes. Elves are supposed to be beautiful and transcendent in appearance. (Not all Elves are blonde, though, witness Elrond (Ok, he’s really a half-elf, but he chose to be an Elf, as was his right as the son of Earendil and Elwing) and Arwen (3/4 Elf, who chooses to be a human)

4

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7. Was there some particular reasopn everyone in Lothlorien looked alike(blonde straight hair) Is that where Legolas is from?

They’re all elves. That’s pretty much what elves look like.
Legolas is the son of the King of the Forest Elves of Mirkwood - the ones who captured Bilbo, Thorin & Co. in The Hobbit.**
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WELl yeah but Elrond and Arwen were dark haired and didn’t look like legolas and the people from lothlorien at all.

So the ring Galdalf has is one of the rings Sauron made? How did he get it- I thought they were only given to men, dwarves and elves?

5

ugh bad coding sheesh

6

It’s one of the three that was never touched by Sauron. It was originally possessed by Cirdan the Shipwright, who later gave it to Gandalf.

As far as the coloring, I dunno. Maybe related to the fact that Elrond was half-elf, and half man. Since Arwen was his daughter, and also half-and-half, it makes sense that she’d have similar coloring.

7

Ok so once they knew that Sauron was back- Did the elves simply take their rings off? And if Sauron could only control them through their rings, why couldn’t they just put them away so they couldn’t be controlled?

Did elrond know that if the ring was not destroyed sauron would return? (when I watched the movie I thought I would have thrown Isildur over the edge ring and all)

8

Sauron can only control the Elf-Rings when he is wearing the One Ring. For the full duration that Sauron wore the One Ring, the Elf-Rings were not worn or used.

Elrond didn’t know beyond doubt what would happen if the Ring were not destroyed, although I’m sure he suspected it would be better to to be rid of it permanently. It was Isildur’s right to claim the Ring as weregild for his father and brother’s deaths at the hands of Sauron, and I suppose Elrond felt that it would have been wrong to murder Isildur based on a suspicion.

9

If he can only control the elf rings why did he make all the others? Did he not know that he couldn’t control them all, or was it was there some toher reason he made them all?

10

Well, here’s how it went down. Sauron came into Hollin, the lands west of Moria, where the Elves dwelt at that time (long before LOTR). A great Elven smith and artisan named Celebrimbor lived there. Sauron, who was, at the time, capable of appearing in a beautiful guise, joined up with Celebrimbor and together they forged many magical Rings. Sauron had a hand in making these, and subtly bent them to his own desires, tainting them with his essence. Unbeknownst to Sauron, Celebrimbor forged Three Rings without Sauron’s input, but based on the knowledge and ringlore Sauron had given him. Then Sauron snuck away to Orodruin and forged the One Ring, to control all the other Rings. As soon as he put it on his finger, the Elves sensed it and removed their Rings. Sauron was enraged and led his armies against Hollin, which he utterly destroyed (which was noted when the Fellowship passed through on their way south). He recovered 16 of the Rings he had helped make and gave them out to the Dwarf Kings and great ambitious Kings and Sorcerors of the race of man. The men were completely enslaved to Sauron’s will becoming the Nazgul (Ringwraiths), the Dwarves resisted Sauron’s control, but the taint of the Rings amplified their love of gold, and they amassed the great Dwarf-hoards of old.

So Sauron had nothing to do with the Three Elven Rings, but since they were created based on the knowledge he had provided Celebrimbor, the One Ring gave him power over them. Since the other Rings were forged with his direct input, he had power over them already, which was greatly amplified by the One Ring.

11

Here’s a question then: are Saruman and all the other wizards in their order Maia as well? If not howcome Gandalf is under Saruman?

12

** Silentgoldfish,**
Perhaps because he chooses not to reveal his true status among the mortal race? He could have just been impersonating. After all Gandalf defeats Saruman in battle.

Just posting thoughts.

13

Yes, unless I’m mistaken, the wizards are all Maia. That’s the reason they have the powers that they do.

14

The wizards are all Maia, sent to Middle Earth to stop Sauron. At the beginning of the books, there are five of them: Saruman, who’s the leader of the five, Gandalf, who, of the five of them, is most interested in the intelligent races of Middle Earth, Radagast, who’s the most interested in nature (and, to my mind, comes off as a bit of a dull bulb), and two other wizards who, hundreds of years ago, went to places in Middle Earth outside the scope of the books, and so we don’t hear about them.

15

Legolas is a wood elf. His people had lived in the forest now called Mirkwood since before the Elves went west, to meet the Valar. They and the Galadrim, (the elves of Lothlorien) are of the Moriquendi, the elves of darkness. They never went west. Galadriel married Celeborn after she came back from the west. She was the granddaughter of the king of the Noldor. The Noldor, and the Vanyar (the Caliquendi, or elves of the light) went west. The Vanyar were mostly blond, the Noldor dark haired. The Vanyar never came back, but the Noldor did. Among the Noldor some married Vanyar, particularly those of the ruling houses. Galadriel’s grandmother was a Vanya

Then there were the Teleri, who did go west, but went late. (Galadriel’s other grandfather was the king of the Teleri who did go west.) They were very closely related to a lot of the Moriquendi, and some of them never did go west, because their first leader (Galadriel’s grand uncle) fell in love with a Maia named Melian, and he stayed in Middle Earth. Arwen is one of her descendants, as is Aragorn, although Aragorn is of the race of men called the Numenoreans. None of this stuff happens during the War of the Ring. It’s ancient history.

The rings were made after everyone who was coming back had already made it back. At the time, Sauron was not perceived as evil, but rather repentant of his former acts, and striving to repay the elves for his prior harm. He was a lying scumbag. Celebrimbor didn’t buy it for a minute, and kept his rings away from Sauron. Others were less skeptical. Sauron didn’t make the one until after the others were made. The three were hidden, but the rest Sauron captured.

A couple of thousand years later, the elves got the one away from Sauron, with the help of the Numenoreans of Gondor and Arnor, but it was almost immediately lost. Isildur dropped it in the great river Anduin, as he was shot and killed by orcs.

Keep in mind that Galadriel was around for this entire story. It helps to understand just how weird she really is. She is a very nice lady, but she has seen a lot of hard, hard places come down to smoke and ash. Tends to make a person a tad bit flinty around the edges. Especially when you get left in charge of one of the three most likely targets of the Dark Lord.

On the bad guys side we got Sauron, and an unspecified number of Balrogs. (All Maiar, a sort of hemi-demi-god). On our side, we have Melian, (a Maia who left a few millennia ago and ain’t been heard from) Bombadil, (who ain’t gonna play) and five wizards, (also Maia). Two of the wizards ain’t been heard from since the ship docked. One is evidently more interested in saving the birds than the elves, and one is a turncoat. That leaves her, and a half elf and the only wizard who seems to be doing a damned thing to fight the aforementioned Dark Lord and about jillion orcs, trolls, and a whole bunch of men.

So, let’s go easy on judging this lady, she’s had a bad day, for the last six or seven thousand years, and most of it isn’t her fault.

Tris

16

I don’t think any of the elves know who that crazy, supernice ring-fellow was. The way I read it was that they didn’t know who he was, but Celebrimbor, Elrond, Cirdain, et al. still didn’t trust him. (i.e., he said, “Hi I’m Annatar, Lord of Gifts,” rather than, “Remember me, Sauron, lord of werewolves? Well that’s all in the past … call me Annatar, Lord of Gifts, now.”)

Not QUITE that much later, IIRC.

Most. There was that whole kinslaying bit, though, which I’m sure she’s still smarting over.

Excellent synopsis, though, Tris.

17

Reading The Silmarllion makes LOTR a lot richer experience, but many people find The Silmarillion an impossible read.

Tom Bombadil is probably not a Maia. This is one of the Great Debates of LOTR, along with do Balrogs have real wings or is the description just imagry.

Tom Bombadil was curious about the ring, but not tempted to keep it, touched it without effect, wore it without effect, etc. While I fully believe that a Maia could wear the ring without disappearing if he/she so willed, it is clear that they were sorely tempted by it. Tom Bombadil was not like any other Middle Earth being, and seems to me to be a one-off. He was described to look like a doll of the same name that Tolkien’s children had, and his inclusion may have been a tip of Tolkien’s hat to his children. There is a book of poetry that Tolkien wrote and published in his lifetime called The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

18

very minor nitpick: I’m not sure, but I don’t think that Sauron had actual control of any Balrogs during the events of LOTR. The one the Fellowship encountered was more or less a fluke.

19

True about the Balrogs Super Gnat. They were creatures of Morgoth, and owed no allegiance to Sauron, as much as he would undoubtedly liked to have had Durin’s Bane in his command, there’s no indication that that was the case. However, thier existence as (former) servants of Morgoth pretty much put them on the same side, which is to say, against the forces of good on Middle-Earth, although they were not working to achieve a common goal, nor does it seem likely that the Balrog of Moria would have given a hang about what happened to the Ring.

20

I just wanted to say thanks to you folks. I knew nothing of the story before seeing the movie, but read the 4 main books after seeing the film. I haven’t yet read The Silmarillion, but I see it (as well as several re-readings of The Four) as being part of my future. Discussions like this, explanations in plain language, who is who and who they are in the scheme of things, really help me.

I’m still trying to figure out the business of “going west” (and coming back) but otherwise I think I’ve got a decent handle on much of it.

Thank you!