Lord of the Rings questions

Cafe Society
1

I’m listening to the unabridged version of Lord of the Rings right now and some questions came up by my younger son so I thought I’d ask here.

First off, what exactly is the One Ring made of? It looks like gold but its supposedly practically indestructable. Silly question perhaps as a follow up to that but…why a ring? My son wanted to know why no one made a sword (in my case, why not armor?) that is indestructable if they could do it for a ring?

Next question is…what exactly is the One Ring supposed to be able to do? Obviously it makes folks invisible, but that wouldn’t be enough to throw down all resistance and put the entire world into darkness. So…what powers would it grant to someone? What exactly would Sauron be able to do with it for instance?

Next…if the ring is so powerful when Sauron has it, how could he lose the first time? Oh, I understand that men and elves (and I guess dwarves) were stronger then…but this gets back into what exactly the ring does. What did the elves/men/dwarves have last time (save raw numbers) that they don’t have this time?

Next…Legolas. There is a lot of mention of some higher powered elves called ‘Elf Lords’ or ‘Elf Princes’. Why is Legolas not included or seemingly have the power or authority of these rarefied creatures? He is the son of the King in Mirkwood, right (thus making him an ‘Elf Prince’ presumably)? Yet he seems no more than the rest of the companions…save he’s an elf with standard elf powers (running on snow, keen eyesight, able to make human women swoon, killer bowshot, etc).

Why didn’t the Dwarves move into Moria in strength if its the only place for True Silver (Morai Silver)? If its valuable enough that a coat of mail made out of it is worth more than the cost of the Shire, why didn’t the Dwarves bend everything they had to the task of taking Moria back…no matter the cost? Why only a small group of adventurers and not the entire Dwarf nation(s), perhaps with the help of wizards like Gandalf…for a cut of course. :slight_smile:

What exact powers does Gandalf have? What can he do? He really only seems to use his powers openly in the first book (fighting the Worgs and then later the Balrog)…why?

Finally, speculation question: Now that the Balrog is dead and Sauron is no more, can/will the Dwarves take back Moria and re-open the mines? After all, they have the book of Marzable (sp?) that clearly indicates that the adventurer dwarves found veins of True Silver again and were begun working them again when they got wiped out.

Anyway, thanks for the answers in advance…I know there is a big LoTR group on this board. If my son’s come up with some more questions I’ll post those too…feel free to post other questions of your own.

-XT

2

I’ll tackle the first set.

Yes, made of gold, but it’s imbued with heavy magic and power, which makes it practically indestructible. Think of the power that was poured into it (magically) as being like armor, that strengthens the material.
[quoe] Silly question perhaps as a follow up to that but…why a ring? My son wanted to know why no one made a sword (in my case, why not armor?) that is indestructable if they could do it for a ring?
[/quote]
Sauron made several rings, as gifts to kings of men (nine) and dwarven lords (seven), and a master ring to rule them. The gifts were deceits, to ensnare these powerful rulers and bend them to Sauron’s will. So, they had to be in the form of something attractive, tempting, beautiful. Plus, he wanted something that could only be weilded by one person – armor or a weapon could be shared. Not so a ring.

Think of it as a magnifier, that focuses and strengthens the inherent power of the wearer. Bilbo and Frodo and Gollum, being small and weak, aren’t able to topple mountains with it. But if Gandalf or Aragorn wore it, it would magnify their natural power. We don’t know exactly what it will do, but presumably it includes mind-control, probably on a large scale (the ability to hearten or disenhearten armies, for instance.)

In Tolkien’s world, power seems to degenerate or weaken over generations, so that there were many mighty elf-lords and kings of men to oppose Sauron. Note that, in this universe, the charisma of kings is a real power, the power to lead. So, there were more powerful forces lined up against Sauron, which are no longer around.

As a general overview, the stories are about good and evil, not about the exact workings of an internal combustion engine. Magic in Tolkien’s universe is a potent force, but we are not told “exactly” how it works, or what someone’s powers are. It’s not a board game or card game with well-defined powers. Saruman, for instance, has a voice that can entirce and entrance and deceive; how does that work? Why does it work on some people and not others? Does he activate the voice by a spell or does he always have it? If it were tape recorded, would it still have the hypnotic power? Etc. Basically, Tolkien doesn’t care. We all know of leaders who have great skills in oratory, in making speeches that twist reality, in using language as a weapon. That’s what Saruman is all about.

If it helps, thinks of some President you admire greatly, and ask, “What are his powers?” Well, some of his powers are explained in the Constitution, for sure, but other powers come from his ability to influence Congress, to influence voters, to represent an ideology, to stand for a certain moral position. Those are not quantifiable powers, but they are (in some situations) far more important than his quantifiable power of veto.

We have only a glimpse of Gandalf’s quantifiable powers (similar for Sauron or Saruman or… ) Those are not are important as the moral (unquantifiable) powers.

3

I’ll tackle Legolas.

There are different kinds of Elves. When the Elves first woke at Cuivienen, they were invited to travel to the Undying Lands to live with the “Gods” in the Light of the Two Trees. There were three Kindred who made the journey. The Vanyar ALL went over the sea and, except for the War of Wrath that ended the First Age and defeated Morgoth for once and all, never returned to Middle-Earth. The Noldor also all went over sea, but rebelled against the Ainur (the “Gods”) and returned to Middle-Earth when Morgoth stole the Silmarilli and fled there. The Teleri, the last Kindred, split several times during the journey, first at the very beginning (the Avari, or Refusers, who didn’t make the journey at all), then at the Misty Mountains (the beginnings of the Sylvan Elves), then when Elwe (their king) was entranced by Melian. Those Teleri who went on to the Undying Lands were counted, with the Vanyar and the Noldor, as Calaquendi, or Light-Elves. The Teleri who stayed in Beleriand looking for Elwe were known as the Sindar, or Grey-Elves, and those who stayed behind completely were the Sylvan Elves.

With background out of the way…

Legolas was the son of Thranduil, King of the Sylvan Elves of Mirkwood. Thranduil (and thus Legolas) were either Sylvan Elves themselves or Sindar. In neither case would they, not having ever seen the light of the Trees or lived in the Undying Lands, would not be as powerful as a full Prince of the Vanyar, Noldor or Teleri.

4

That’s some seriously messed-up grammar…

In neither case would they, not having ever seen the light of the Trees or lived in the Undying Lands, be as powerful as a full Prince of the Vanyar, Noldor or Teleri.

5

Wow, great answers! Much appreciated, though explaining these to an 8 year old will probably prove challenging.

Presumably then Elrond (and the elf who helped out Aragorn and the hobbits on the way from Weathertop…I forget his name now) were of these ‘special’ elves that had seen the tree? Even though Elrond was only half elf?

I did read the Simirillian (prolly spelled it wrong) but that was decades ago and a lot of it went over my head at the time.

Well, I suppose the question is, if you could make indestructable rings, why not swords or armor as well? I’d think that both would be extremely valuable to Sauron (say, if he’d made an indestructable glove he wouldn’t have had his ring cut off :)). I understand the rest of what you are saying but thats probably going to go over my son’s head…however, I REALLY appreciate the deeper explaination of the story. It was quite good.

-XT

6

First, let me offer up the FAQ of the Rings, which can answer a lot of ring questions.

Next, in the FOTR, Gandalf “held it up. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold.” He later went on to say that Frodo’s fire wasn’t hot enough to melt ordinary gold. Therefore I suspect the ring was either Gold whose intrinsic reality had been altered (Sauron was a Maia, and had this ability) or Gold mixed with Mithril.

Why a ring? My best is because they’re mythic. :smiley: Also easy to stick on a finger and not have to think much about. A magic sword’s always getting propped in a corner, tripping you up when you walk, etc. Pendants and necklaces fall off. Arda was a dangerous place, and folks had to pick up and leave in a hurry, so a ring just makes sense. :cool:

From the FAQ: To rule the other Rings, to control the wielders of other Rings, to possibly understand languages or read thoughts, to control or influence people in general. From my readings of JRRT’s writings, I’d also add it allowed Sauron to tap into the corruption within Arda itself, put their by his master, Melkor/Morgoth.

Because the elves were surpassing powerful, back in the day. Gil-Galad was a Noldorin king, leading the large remnant of his people, many of whom had dwelt long in Valinor at the feet of the Powers, learning from them, before returning to Middle Earth. And the Numenorean refugees (Elendil, Isildur and their men) who were their allies were of the Faithful, long-lived, with the blood of the Edain in them, which had been blessed by the powers back in the day too. Mucho Mojo.

He was Moriquendi, an Elf of the dark, not a Calaquendi, an Elf of the light. The latter had lived in Valinor during the Days of the Trees, and learnt much at the feet of the powers. Rustic distant cousins to the Noldor.

The Dwarves had been tossed out of Moria by the Balrog, not by any orcs. During the Dwarf and Orc wars they had slaughtered most of the orcs of the Misty Mountains, and fought the final battle at the Gates of Morder. But even in victory, they caught a glimpse of the Balrog, “Durin’s Bane” which had slain their king years earlier, and knew that they did not have the power to defeat him.

In his unlimited form, as a Maia, he has the Power of Command, and may cause things to Be. As Olorin, he pre-dated the World, and helped create it from the void. But as Gandalf, he is not just masquerading as a man, he essentially is one. His abilities are constrained, and his mission is to inspire the hearts of men and dwarves and the elves who remain to rise up to face their foe. He is forbidden to confront the enemy directly save at great need, such as when they are confronted by the Balrog, which is also a Maia. He lends a hand against common foes like Orcs and Wargs, and even ringwraiths, but his power is rarely unveiled due to the constraints placed on him.

JRRT states explicitly that the dwarves returned to Moria only in the drafts of the appendices to ROTK. He does not spell it out in the actual published LOTR.

Hope that helped.

7

Further to Jayjay’s masterly analysis of Elvenkind:

Thranduil was himself the son of Ondoher, who was IIRC killed at the end of the Second Age. In an essay printed as an appendix to one of the Unfinished Tales accounts, “The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves,” Ondoher/Thranduil/Legolas and Celeborn of Lorien are identified as having been Sindarin (but “The History of Galadriel” suggests that Tolkien was not definite on Celeborn’s origins yet, making him a Telerin prince who came back with the Noldor, more or less).

In general, the terms “Elf King” and “Elf Lord” refer to the Noldor, the fact that the other groups have monarchs and nobility too not being applicable to that usage. Gil-Galad, for example, was “the last Elf King,” as the last Middle Earth member of the Noldorin royal family other than Galadriel, never mind that Thranduil and Celeborn were still hale and hearty when he met his end.

Balin was a member of the House of Durin; this is mentioned somewhere. He led a fair-sized party to retake Moria, not just a small band of adventurers. As for what happened after the fall of the Balrog, by the time word would have gotten back to Erebor, they were already under attack by allies of Sauron. And with very few exceptions, Tolkien said little of what happened during the Fourth Age. (Aragorn and Arwen’s life and reign together, and the succession of their, Faramir’s, and Eomer’s sons, Merry and Pippin succeeding to their family titles, and Sam becoming mayor and some notes on his descendants, along with a short effort towards one story, “The New Shadow,” being about all we know of the Fourth Age.) So whether or not any dwarves went back to Moria after the fall of Sauron is left moot.

8

Elrond is a…very special case. While one of his epithets was “Half-Elven”, there’s a heck of a lot more involved in his ancestry.

Elrond’s parents were Earendil and Elwing. Both of THEM were considered half-elven, being products of an Elf mother and a Human father. However, Elwing’s grandmother was Melian, one of the lesser “Gods”. In all, Elrond has the blood of all three Elf kindred, all three houses of Noble Men, and the Gods in his veins. Not even close to being just a half-elf.

The Elf who helped the Fellowship at the Fords of Rauros was Glorfindel, a Lord of the Noldor (from Finarfin’s line), and was one of the Noldor who came over in rebellion when Morgoth stole the Jewels. From all I’ve read, it seems generally accepted that the Glorfindel who died at the Fall of Gondolin (in the First Age) came back to Middle-Earth and was the same Glorfindel who sped Frodo to Rivendell. So yes, he was definitely one of the Calaquendi.

9

Quite right! :cool:

Keep in mind also, that Elrond’s twin brother was Elros. Elros chose to be a mortal man, and was first king of the Numenoreans, and ancestor to Aragorn.

10

Just a note to remember: Elrond had a twin brother, Elros. After the War of Wrath and the Drowning of Beleriand, both Elrond and Elros were give the Choice: Become a full Edhil or a full Edain (Elf or Man). Elrond chose to become an Elf and remain immortal, while Elros chose to become a Man and became the first King of Numenor. Therefore, Aragorn and Arwen are really first cousins a heck of a lot of times removed (I never can remember the number of generations and I refuse to go count up family trees).

11

Something I’ve wondered about for years since I was a little kid constantly rewatching the animated Return of the King: Could you drop a nuke on the Ring and destroy it that way? In other words, was the only real requirement to destroy the Ring lots and lots of heat or was there a need to work the magic against itself by dropping it in Mount Doom?

I’ve got another question, which is mainly how the heck it managed to become so popular 15 or 20 years after it was first published, but that’s for a different thread.

12

Great minds think alike, no? :wink:

13

Get outta my brain, Doc! :slight_smile:

14

Nah. I’m not sure nuclear fusion would even work in Middle-Earth. The sun was the magical fruit of one of the two trees, not a big bag of helium.

It started out pretty popular right after it was published, and just continued growing ever after.

15

Okay, now for a serious question: Do Balrogs have wings? :wink:

How about a serious serious question: What happened to Saruman after being killed? I mean, I read it as his–what is the right term? soul? astral body? Maian form?–broke up and disappeared, not being allowed back.

16

You’ll notice that the wind that dispersed his essence came from the West. I read that as the Valar rejecting his spirit and simply destroying him.

17

Well, in the book I seem to recall that Balrog’s have wings…but appearently they are flightless as the one fighting Gandalf fell into the chasm and didn’t simply fly out.

Thanks for all the great responses!!

Another couple of questions. I vaguely remember about Numenor (sort of like Atlantis, destroyed when the men there attempted to invade the undieing lands…or something like that anyway). Appearently Isildur and his brother and father all came from Numenor landing on the shores of Middle Earth after the fall of Numenor (IIRC) and then set about founding kingdoms. Is that correct? If so, even with their long lives, they didn’t have much time to make a huge impression…especially the Northern Kingdom couldn’t have lasted very long as Isildur (who was running it) died.

My questions are…who was the heir to Isildur’s brothers/fathers half of the kingdom as they both died? There was a king in Gondor for a while until the line died out IIR. If Isildur’s baby son survived (obviously he did as there is an Aragon later, a direct decendant), why doesn’t HE rule in the North…or North and South for that matter? Why did the line go into hiding?

With the destruction of the One Ring, doesn’t that mean that magic would completely leave Middle Earth eventually? If so…well, why? I can understand how the rings were tied to the One (sort of…I’m not sure I understand why the 3, which he never saw or touched were bound, and that they derived their power from the 3 jewels of power, the Simirils (or something like that)…but thats another question)…but all the magic in the land wasn’t tied to the rings. There had to BE magic to make the rings after all, so the magic predated the rings.

-XT

18

It was a joke. There is a long-running argument over whether or not balrogs have wings. So I asked a not-very-serious question, followed by a joke question, followed by a serious question about what happens to the spirits of the maia and valar that turned to evil.

19

Balrogs are the evil-spirit equivalent of ratites. Like the ostrich, kiwi, etc. Have wings, can’t fly. No keel on their breastbone.

Qadgop, what the heck does “Valaraukar” mean (other than “balrog” in Quenya), anyway?

20

There was about 100 years between the fall of Numenor and the coming of Elendil the Tall to Middle Earth. (I know Qadgop will be crushed if I don’t leave Elendil’s memorable quote for him to give.) That was plenty enough time to found Gondor and Arnor, the South and North Kingdoms, and get them stable.

Elendil had two sons, each of whom was his Viceregent for one of the Kingdoms while he was in the other one: Anarion in Gondor, and Isildur in Arnor. Anarion predeceased his father during the last war (they thought) against Sauron. His son became Isildur’s Viceregent for Gondor while Isildur headed back north. When Isildur was killed at the Gladden Fields, the two kingdoms became separate, each headed by one of Elendil’s grandkids, the eldest surviving sons of Anarion and Isildur.

The situation in Arnor got more complicated. Several hundred years after Isildur’s death, the kingdom split into thirds: Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. The royal line continued in Arthedain but died out in the other two, and Rhudaur fell under the influence of the bad guys (specifics escape me right now). Anyway, there was a three-way civil war of sorts that killed off most of the Numenorean-descendant population and more or less depopulated the kingdom. Then Arthedain, which came out on top, ended up fighting Angmar, the kingdom up north of it ruled by the Witch-King (same guy as head honcho of the Ringwraiths). Net result is that Arvedui, the last king, took ship at Forochel, died when his ship sunk, and his son determined not to try to continue the kingdom with the corporal’s guard of Numenoreans that survived the Angmar war and the shipwreck and remained loyal to him. Instead he set up the Rangers to protect what little was left of civilization in the North, in part working out of Rivendell, where the few relics of the North Kingdom that weren’t destroyed in the fighting or at the bottom of Forochel Bay with Arvedui were taken for safekeeping. (Narsil, the broken sword that was reforged for Aragorn, was one of the main relics.)