LotR "What If?" Questions (Probable Spoilers)

Cafe Society
1

A few days ago, I read several LotR threads. These prompted me to re-watch the movie (and read a bit from The Silmarillion.) Which ended with me wondering, “Hey-- I wonder…”

So I decided to start this thread-- post any new “What would have happened if…” questions here, if they don’t fit in another thread.

I hope I’m not covering any old ground here. I looked over the threads again, but one can never be too sure…

What if:

One of the Ringbearers had given Frodo their ring? Could he have used that ring and the One at the same time? What would have been the effect? Would it have mattered?

For instance, if Elrond gave Vilya to Frodo, what would be the effects upon Frodo, upon the Fellowship, and upon Rivendell?

Suppose, instead of being one of the Three, it was one of the “missing” Seven?
What if:

Sauron had obtained one (or more) of the Three and decided to wear it? Would it have increased his power? Would things still have ended the way they did?

He evidently has the remaining Seven and all of the Nine, but other than commanding the Nazgul and tempting the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, he doesn’t seem to use them much. The Three, though, were unspoiled by him, so maybe that would have been important.

-David
who will be glad when he has enough extra cash to buy the entire History of Middle Earth…

2

Frodo of the four rings:

Would have garnered a lot of attention, and still been only a highly overarmed hobbit, no match for the Dark Lord himself. The only way he (Frodo) had a chance was to have Sauron paying attention to things beyond Mordor, like the three rings of the elves, and a nagging suspicion that Aragorn, holding the sword that cut off his finger, might show up at any minute wearing the ring, and commanding a host more vast than his own power could withstand.

Bad plan, Frodo, old buddy.

Sauron with Vilya, or another of the three:

With the ring in his hand, Sauron would be better served to give it to someone who might be able to use it, and would fall willingly into service of Sauron, say perhaps “The Mouth of Sauron” or someone like that. However, the Three were not created to bring force, or power to the wearer, but to preserve and defend against power. Regaining the one is still critical to Sauron’s plans, over time. Breaking the realm of Gondor is just a step, in that plan. He assaulted Lorien three times before the attack on Gondor, in fact. He was also bringing force to bear on the land of Dale, and the Lonely Mountain. The One Ring is critical, because by whatever means, if it is destroyed, Sauron falls.

Tris

3

Thanks, Tris. I was wondering where the bulk of the Dwarves were during the War, in view of their rapid march during the Battle of Five Armies. Preparing for their own war, it would seem…
One more for now, if you (or anyone else, for that matter) don’t mind:

Excepting the Three, which were unsullied, are all of the rings the same? They affected their users differently, but that may have been a result of the wearer’s race, and not a result of the magic of the individual ring.

So, with the above in mind (which may be right or wrong…)

What if:

A Dwarf tried on one of the Nine, or a Man wore one of the Seven?

or, in a related question…

A Hobbit, Orc, Troll, Goblin, Stone Giant, or Ent put on one of the Nine or Seven?
I know that Tolkien didn’t explicitly answer most of these types of questions, so I appreciate the time and thought that has to be put into answering them.

-David

4

Well, by implication, although not by actual denotation, the three were different from all the rest. Celebrimbor made the three, and he never was willing to associate with Sauron. Evidently it is inherent in the nature of such rings that a greater ring can overcome them, and rule the wearer of the lesser. But the intent of the creator does seem to have some influence over the result. The three were not made to dominate, but to preserve.

Other smiths in Eregion made the other sixteen rings. Those smiths worked closely with Sauron, and were strongly influenced as well. I think the seven and nine were essentially similar in nature, magnifying the inherent power of the wearer, and linking his will to the will of whoever wore the One. The fact that seven were given to dwarves was just a numerical fact, not a planned set of recipients. I think each smith made his ring, or rings for his own purposes. Perhaps those purposes varied, and the skill of the smiths as well.

I think the effect on the wearers varied because of the nature of the recipients, not the nature of the rings. A very powerful human sorcerer or king became a much more powerful, and daunting personal presence, yet all the while, that human’s spirit was bound, and enslaved to the will of Sauron, wielding the One. A dwarven lord became more skillful in his crafts, for craft is the nature of dwarven hearts. He also became more greedy for the fruits of such labors, his own, or another’s. The presence of the One ring, and the ability it had to impose the will of Sauron upon the wearers of the others worked well on men, because of the inherent nature of men, rather than the inherent nature of those particular rings. Dwarves, had spirits so entirely different from the spirits of either Men, or Elves, (Or Maia, for that matter) that the intended enslavement was not possible. But the rings still followed the will of their master, rather than the will of their wearer. So the hearts of Dwarves were inflamed, and their greed accomplished what enslavement could not and one by one the Dwarven Lords died.

Ents, I think would be uninterested in such things as rings, or swords, or staves of power. The power of Ents is the same power that is in the Earth itself. I don’t think the rings would have any effect on an ent. Besides, they wouldn’t fit.

Orcs, trolls, and such would be magnified according to their stature. The stature of an orc being what it was, I doubt that a great ring would allow them to do much more than become one of the kings of orcs, perhaps the greatest of them, but orcs are quintessentially subservient to greater power, and there was no shortage of that in the realms of Sauron. Probably turn into nasty quasi-nazgul, big on horror, weak on actual power.

We hear nothing about the original elves that made these rings, aside from Celebrimbor, and we must assume that they either were killed for them, or gave them up willingly, once they were able to see what they had done. Elves evidently don’t make good servants.

Tris

5

Actually, I don’t believe that Frodo was capable of using any of the rings. When he turned invisible when putting on the One, the ring was using him. In fact, the reason why Tom Bombadil didn’t turn invisible when he put the ring on was because the ring didn’t have any mastery or control over him. Not so with Frodo.

Actually, I believe that Sauron only has three or four of the Seven… the others were lost in dragon fire or some other Dwarven conflict. Apparently, they weren’t as durable as the One.

6

Thanks, guys!

When I was in my mid-teens, I read LotR for the first time. Then, I promptly set about making a D&D ripoff of it.

My word! My friends and I were killing Nazgul left and right with holy water!

Now, though, I am at least older if not wiser, and I have gained a deep fascination for Tolkien’s internal consistancy, especially concerning the Ring and It’s creatures.

“Some of the Nazgul were originally good men?”

“They weren’t just your basic stock wraiths on horseback? And Sauron couldn’t just make more of them?”

“The fact that almost all of Gandalf’s wizardry-- from fireworks to burning sparks to flaming pinecones-- involves fire or lightning isn’t just incidental?” (which makes me wonder if the Three didn’t have some offensive capabilities…)

I had (and still have, hence this thread) a great deal to learn…

Holy water, indeed!

-David

7

ahem

its creatures

Guess I can’t yell at my sister for doing that anymore.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted…

: sigh :

8

There are people who have read the 12 volumes of “notes” that are published that Tokien wrote who can probably answer this more definitively, but The Hobbit was written before the concept of the War of the Ring was fully fleshed out. It is entirely uncertain in my mind that the ring Bilbo found in The Hobbit was anything more than a ring of invisibility, or that any other rings under its control had been thought out by then, including Gandalf’s. The impression I got was that Gandalf used his ring in LOTR to put fire in the hearts of those despondent, like Theoden, but failing with Denethor. There is a poster named Qadgop the Mercotan that really knows this stuff, perhaps he can shed some light. But the Hobbit was written in the 30s, and LOTR from the late 30s to early 50s.

9

Tris, sorry but must disagree with your analysis.

Not the case. Sauron, disguised as Annatar, lord of gifts, seduced the elven smiths of Eregion, including Celebrimor, mightiest elven craftsman since his grandfather, Feanor. Between 1200 and 1600 SA, they cooperated with him, despite the distrust of Annatar that Gil-Galad and Cirdan evinced. It was only when Sauron put on the ruling ring that Celebrimbor and the others realized they were betrayed, and rebelled against the now unveiled Sauron. That battle lasted over 75 years before Sauron laid waste to Eregion, and slew Celebrimbor.

http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Places-index/Places-ME/Ost-in-Edhil.htm

10

spart, thanks for the comps, but I am basically an amateur student of JRRT’s writings (C+ average at the best of times).

But when JRRT wrote The Hobbit, it was mostly unconnected with his tales of the Silmarils, and originally the ring of invisibility found by Bilbo was just a magic ring. Tolkien’s world grew in the telling.

11

Well, they were kings. That runs the range from Ghengis Khan to someone like Abraham Lincoln.

Three were “great lords of Numenorean race” who were “increased in power and splendor” – Tolkienspeak for “good guys”. (“The Silmarillion”, p. 267.)

It seems they were “good” even some while after taking the rings of power (Which goes very well, you notice, with the things Gandalf and Galadriel said about how they themselves would “start out good” if they took the one ring.). “Those who use the Nine Rings became might in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth…” (p. 289) More Tolkienspeak for “good guys”.

“Unfinished Tales” has the interesting comment that the Khamul, the second most powerful ringwraith, was second most able to perceive the ring, and also the one to be most phased by daylight. (p. 368) This is the nice sort of detail that to my mind might have been included in LoTR – to help explain why the ringwraiths were so invincible and seeing in some situations, but vulnerable and blinkered in others.

12

This is actually already explained in LotR. Really, the Nazgul had one weapon, and only one: Fear. Against anyone who did not fear them, or who was brave enough to counter that fear, they were powerless. Elves in general are not troubled by the spirits of Men, and particularly not someone like Glorfindel who’s been on the other side and back. Aragorn stands up to them. Eowyn is determined to defend her King, and isn’t about to back down. Likewise Merry is motivated by the same loyalty, to both Theoden and Eowyn. Faramir is brave enough that he’s even able to protect his men against the fear to some degree, and is able to put together an organized retreat rather than a rout. Even the Gaffer and Farmer Maggot stand up to the Nazgul. And in each case where someone actually stands up to them, the Nazgul are completely powerless.

13

Qadgop, that is what I suspected, that the story grew with the telling.

Chronos: The Nazgul are not completely powerless without fear. All nine of them attacked Gandalf on Weathertop, presumably with fear and, importantly, swords. Gandalf was fearless for his own physical safety, but he had to flee as their power was too much for them. I think it is safe to say that Gandalf was attacked with fearing something other than fear itself.

14

Qadgop,

Perhaps so, but I am not convinced.

The Silmarillion is quite clear on the subject that Celebrimbor alone made the three and that Sauron never touched them. It may be that he was not otherwise unwilling to associate with Annatar, the fair seeming guise of Sauron, but it certainly seems he was less than entirely trusting. Sauron’s claim on the rings may have some element of truth in it, for it seems likely that Celebrimbor must have gained some knowledge from him, if only second hand. But it does not seem to me that that implies the nature of the three rings was under Sauron’s control.

However, I think my point is still valid, in that Sauron was able to influence the creation of most of the rings in such a way that they were more apt to matters of domination over others. The three were not of that nature and I find it reasonable to assume it was so because their creator did not desire dominion, but only preservation.

Tris

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Tris, it seems in his heart of hearts, Celebrimbor was never won over by Sauron, as the other elves of eregion were, when they overthrew Galadriel and Celeborn for opposing “Annatar”. That’s why it states (somewhere in HOMES) that Celeborn rebelled when Sauron put on the ruling ring.

And I agree, it was Celebrimbor’s pure heart which kept the three pure also. And free of Sauron’s influence.

So I’m not sure if we’re arguing anymore or not. I guess we aren’t, if you’re willing to renounce your statement (heretical! :D) that Celebrimbor refused to deal with Sauron/Annatar.

From: The Annals of Arda http://www.annalsofarda.dk/
Sauron chose the land of Mordor to build his stronghold and when he felt secure, he sent emissaries to Eriador to ingratiate and to spy on them. At last in 1200 he came himself. Sauron was still or could still assume a beautiful visible shape, and though Gil-Galad in Lindon and Galadriel warned most of the Elves in Eregion, they did not listen to them. Therefore, Sauron had better fortune there, especially with Celebrimbor, who wanted to learn the knowledge and skills Sauron had and to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor. Sauron quickly perceived that Galadriel would be his chief obstacle. Through his growing influence in the mighty brotherhood of Gwaith-i-Mirdain ( The smiths in Eregion ), he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn. In 1350-1400 Galadriel left Eregion through the mansions of Khazad-Dum into Loth-Lórien, but Celeborn would not enter the Dwarf-mines and remained in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor.

The Eregion-Elves reached the heights of their skills in1500, when they began the forging of the Rings of Power. Sauron left Eregion about this time too so as to begin the making of the One Ring in the Firechambers in Orodruin. Celebrimbor, who was never corrupted in heart or faith by Sauron, at length discovered the existence of the One Ring and revolted against Sauron. He went to Loth-Lórien to take counsel with Galadriel, Who advised him to hide the Rings of Power outside Eregion and to never use them. She received the White Ring Nenya from Celebrimbor. Following her counsel Celebrimbor entrusted the Blue ring Vilya, and the Red ring, Narya, to Gil-Galad in Lindon

16

Can I toss a ‘what if’ in?

A pet-theory of mine (and I think JRR alludes to it) is that the Balrog of Moria sensed the Ring and wanted it. Now certainly The Balrog was powerful enough to wield it and ruin everyone’s Third Age. As well, Gandalf had Narya – and that would only help a wielder of The One. Furthermore, Aragorn is wearing The Ring of Barahir - which was The Ring of Finrod Felagund - actually an engagement ring forged by Finrod - half-brother of Feanor - some 10,000 years prior. Not a Ring of Power, yet Finrod abdicates his throne for the promise he gave Beren’s father. And Balrog would have had to pry that Ring from Aragorn’s cold fingers – no easy battle.

In short: The One enters Moria. Does Balrog know of it? Does Balrog want it? What could she do with it?

17

What If:

Gandalf told the party that they would hve to walk across the Plains of the Prickly Bushes for forty days, then spend ten days traversing the Mountain Pass of the Itchy Underwear, followed by a 25-day march through the Valley of the Persistant Jehovah’s Witnesses/Insurance Salesmen and then the party members looked at each other before Boromir said “Screw this, can’t we just fly there on the back of one of those giant birds Gandalf used to escape Saruman’s tower?”

18

RE: Balrog with the ring–

I don’t know whether the Balrog could “sense” the ring-- after all, Gandalf didn’t just “know” that Bilbo was wearing THAT ring… he researched for years (regardless of what the movie shows) before being satisfied with the answer.

Of course, the Balrog may have overheard the Fellowship’s conversations outside the gate and inside Moria…

Likewise, had Gandalf taken the ring, it is by no means certain that he could have defeated Sauron. And the Balrog couldn’t even defeat Gandalf.

So if the demon did manage to get the ring, Sauron would probably have finally wound up with it, and the Balrog would still be dead.

-David

19

Chronos,

I’m responding in part to passages like this from “Fellowship of the Ring” (Near the end of the “Strider” chapter) “In the dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us.”

My conviction is that Tolkien created such a profusion of notes and rewrites – particularly about the early portions of the books – that he was at times unable to realize that he’d left something out, or contradicted himself. With any lengthy writing over time it becomes very hard to remember which parts are “current” and issues of causality. Overall, he did very well.

Here are a couple examples from “The Return of the Shadow” which suggest the Nazgul were caught up by problems with compilation (“The Return of the Shadow” is Volume VI of Christopher Tolkien’s History of Middle Earth):

Gandalf: “By some grace of fortune, or by your own courage… and the confusion caused by the elf-name you cried, only your shoulder was grazed” (p. 208)

Gandalf: “But for that ‘short cut’ you would not have met old Bombadil, nor had the one kind of sword the Riders fear.” (p. 213)

So it can be seen that quite a number of factors seem to be involved in the Nazgul’s strength: distance from Mordor, whether it’s daylight, whether there are lights showing at night, the number of Nazgul together, courage of the defenders, shouting elf-names, etc., etc., and suspeciously etc.

(While we’re in the neighborhood, “The Return of the Shadow” is a great place to start with Christopher Tolkien’s history.)

20

Well, I’ll still argue that the strengths and weaknesses of the Nine all stemmed from fear, or the lack thereof. I think that they’re strongest under cover of darkness etc. because that’s when they’re most fearsome. Likewise well-lit houses, many people together, etc.: A well-lit house full of people is difficult to panic. Yes, they had swords, too, but aside from the fact that they’re Morgul-blades, they’re really no more to be feared for their swords than any other being weilding a sword.

By the way, Corbomite, why do you refer to the Balrog as “she”? Is there any indication as to its gender in the books, one way or the other? I had always assumed by default that it was male.