I don’t remember if this one has been discussed or not, so I thought I’d mention it. The most plausible scenerio for this would be that Gollum somehow gets captured by agents of Saruman rather than Sauron, and thus Saruman first learns of the “Hobbit” named “Bagginses” who has the “Precious”. He then spies out the Shire, learns of Bilbo and by hook or crook finds the Ring.
My questions are these: by the use of the Palantir, Saruman had already given Sauron far more access to his mind then he knew. Could Sauron dominate Saruman enough to command him to yield the Ring? If Sauron sent his forces to Isengard to seize the Ring, did Saruman have the power or knowledge to immediately use the Ring to gain control of Sauron’s forces? Does the Ring actually have power over Sauron himself if one knows how to use it? And what if anything could or would anyone else do about it all?
*Like all LotR what-ifs, this supposes that the seemingly random events of LotR really were random, or else somehow Eru choose a different fate for the outcome.
Saruman was on a collision course to domination by Sauron. I’m going to opine that he would have, at some time, ended up giving Sauron the ring back. Maybe not immediately, and it may come after Saruman had set up a rival evil empire over Dunland and Rohan, but I think it’s inevitable after enough time.
*1. Could Sauron dominate Saruman enough to command him to yield the Ring? *
Yes. Although Saruman, as a wizard woud have proven much more of a chalenge than your average human/elf/orc/dwarf. I’m sure that Sauron could and would have dominated his mind, albeit subtly. Even Gandalf feared bearing the ring.
If Sauron sent his forces to Isengard to seize the Ring, did Saruman have the power or knowledge to immediately use the Ring to gain control of Sauron’s forces?
This part is more interesring, since Sauron’s army would have to cross both Gondor and Rohan to reach Isengard. Without the influence of Gandalf, the elves at Rivendell and Galadriel’s forest would have gone west to the undying lands, like New York Jews to Florida, and sought to remain isolated from the conflict. The dwarves played no part in the war of the rings as it was, having also gone west like Cubans to Miami. It is conceivable that Grima Wormtongue would have worked King Theoden to support Saruman, or at least allow his orcs passage across Rohan, but this would result in Saruman’s Uruk Hai attempting to conscript Rohan’s cavalry, which I don’t see as being at all successful. Denethor was likewise weakened to Sauron’s will, via the influence of the Palantir. Considering the ages-long border skirmishes and emnity between the two nations, I doubt that Sauron could have turned Gondor into an ally. So they would have to defeat the two armies in order to engage in conflict directly.
Once they arrived at Isengard, Saruman could try to create an alliance based on Orcish ethnicity. We saw how well that worked, with the Mordor Orcs and Uruk-Hai squabbling over Pippin’s legs and Frodo’s mithril mailshirt. Throw in the Moria goblins and you now have three ‘races’ of orc squabbling for spoils. Four if you count the small Isengard orcs as a seperate faction from the Mordor orcs and their larger Uruk-Hai brethren. Apparently orcs aren’t real big on alliances.
Once again, all this assumes Gandalf having no influence.
Does the Ring actually have power over Sauron himself if one knows how to use it?
I don’t think so. QTM or another one of our esteemed real Tolkein geeks can answer this better than myself.
And what if anything could or would anyone else do about it all?
Beats me.
Both BMax and jayjay’s responses are wrong (sorry guys!). Tolkein himself addressed the issue in a letter.
Suffice it to say that there was no answer, except that at a minimum it was going to be one hell of a fight. Saruman was not just gonna “hand the ring over”. What would probably happen is that the two would battle it out with an vast, vast war. Eventually, Saruman and Sauron would have to go at it themselves in a battle of sheer wills. Sauron would have the advantage, but it definitely wasn’t certain that he would win. Whoever won would break and enslave the loser.
As a matter of note, Gandalf was the only being who, wielding the Ring, really would have an advantage and would be expected to win against Sauron. It wasn’t impossible for others to win, but it would be much harder.
I have to disagree with jayjay & BMax. Gandalf and Galadriel both feared the Ring as they feared becoming evil overlords. They would have probably defeated Sauron though they would never have been completely rid of him.
Saruman was studied in the Ring lore and was poised to take out or over Rohan if Gandalf and those meddling Hobbits hadn’t ruined his plans. If Saruman had either scouted out that the Baggins had the Ring or captured Frodo and the Ring when his Orcs got Merry and Pippin and succeeded in returning the Ring he was probably well set to build power to challenge Sauron with Minas Tirith caught in the middle.
One of the two huge mistakes Saruman made was revealing his new self to Gandalf and of course failing as a jailor. His other mistake was using the Palantir on Mordor.
Now maybe Sauron could have fought Saruman before he was ready, but the odds were he would have first lost control over the Nazgul his most valuable servants. Minas Tirith was in the way of marching armies over to Isengard. Saruman may well have been able to use the Ring to bring the Goblins of the Misty Mountains under his banner swiftly.
In direct confrontation, Sauron probably could have browbeaten Saruman to give up the ring, especially since JRRT felt that even Gandalf’s chances against Sauron were iffy.
The One Ring does not guarantee victory by force. Sauron was twice defeated while wielding the ring, first by Ar-Pharazon, and later by the Last Alliance. Saruman, wielding the ring, could have held off Sauron’s armies. And possibly could have turned some of them, using both his voice, and the power of the One Ring.
The One Ring contains not only power that was native to Sauron that he placed into it, but also helps the wielder tap into the power of Morgoth within Arda itself. Therefore I believe the One Ring, wielded by one such as Gandalf the White, with Maiar powers uncloaked, could have used the ring’s power against Sauron himself. (I sometimes wonder what Melkor could have done with the ring, giving him a more direct line to his native strength…) DRAGON222: Situs Judi Slot Online Terbaru & Link Slot Gacor Terpercaya Indonesia
I just glance through every letter in Letters that mentioned Saruman. None of these addressed this issue. Do you know which letter you were thinking of? If you give me some clues I can find it swiftly. It obviously did not mention Saruman specifically.
Just to expand on this a bit, although you are utterly correct…
There wasn’t much left on Arda that could resist great power by the time of Bilbo and Frodo. Few elves were left, and many of the most powerful especially had gone already. The Dwarves were actually recovering their position somewhat, and might have been able to hold out against Sauron for a while, but simply lacked the numbers to effectively battle him.
The human nations of the East were (apparently) not totally under Sauron’s dominion, but he had influence there and they would find it difficult to resist his full might. Nations to the south had evidently been conquered or controlled by him off and on for, well, a very long time.
Gondor, the anvil of the West, was greatly weakened by almost a century of unceasing raids and warfare, even losing their entire eastern frontier. (Wasn’t the evacuated area of Gondor proper almost half the nation?) Further west was mostly untouched but not really sufficient. To the north, human lands were more thinly settled and less organized.
I wouldn’t say it was impossible for them win, perhaps, but very nearly so. Had either Sauron or Saruman gotten hold of the Ring, Minas Tirith would almost certainly have collapsed. Denethor was almost broken by the strain of resisting Sauron while gaining information via the Palantir. Had it even been relieved, they still could not have mounted any counterattack, and would have simply been waiting for the next (final and fatal) blow to fall. And Sauron’s armies to the north would have eventually swept aside Laketown and Erebor.
I really should have my eyes checked, because my first thought on reading the thread title was, “Why would Superman need the One Ring?”
That letter says: “Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.” I think “the others” must have been referring to the good guys, because Saruman was also “an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.”
Although it’s consigned to the LOTR appendices, the Dwarves of Erebor and the Men of Dale fought Sauron’s forces valiantly for ten days, each losing their king: http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/b/battleofdale.html
Other than Gimli, as far as we know, the Dwarves played no role in the fighting in Rohan and Gondor, it’s true, as Moria was of course depopulated.
As to Saruman… I think Sauron’s psychological and spiritual dominance of Saruman via the Palantir was pretty well set by the time Saruman might reasonably have gotten the Ring. There might’ve been a battle of wills - not even necessarily a military struggle - but I think Saruman would’ve forked it over before too long. Sauron made the Ring, after all, and was an older and more powerful Maia than Saruman. I agree with Tom Tildrum that the Ring would probably mess with Saruman’s plans if it could.
I don’t think the Ring itself was capable of directly sabotaging Saruman’s plans, other than instilling (or amplifying) delusions of grandeur and craving for power - and of course slipping off his finger at an inopportune time.
Saruman still has free will. Sauron can manipulate him through the palantir by showing him only what Sauron wants him to see, but he does not directly control him.
I think Tolkien would probably have agreed that Sauron would defeat Saruman, but I think it would be a hell of a fight.
Well by what I can recall, Sauron was among the most powerful of Aulë’s followers and Saruman (Curumo) was less powerful. However all the Maiar were older than the Arda.
Saruman was also quite the Ring-Lore scholar - had he not gone as far as to make his own, lesser ring, or is that just the MERP talking? If so, it’s possible he would be better placed than most to unlock the deeper secrets of the One.
