LOTR: Questions about the wizards (possible spoilers)

Cafe Society
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A few questions regarding the wizards in The Lord of the Rings. I’ll say right here that some of this might constitute spoilers if you’ve never read the books ro seen the movies. If you have gotten at least to the Two Towers (book or movie) I think you’re ok.

  1. How many wizards are there in Middle Earth? I always thought of Isengard as a sort of wizard hangout but all you ever hear about are Sarumon and Gandalf. Can people go there to study to become wizards or do you have to be like Gandalf who was created very early on when Middle Earth itself came about (or at least a short while after)?

  2. How old is Gandalf by the time of the books? Is Sarumon just as old or older? I assume Sarumon came about the same way as Gandlaf did early on in middle earth history since Sarumon is the head of the wizards but frankly I don’t know.

  3. If Sarumon is the ‘White’ and Gandalf is the ‘Grey’ what other colors are there (assuming there are more wizards than just these two)? Does the color denote rank with white being the highest?

  4. I assume Sarumon is more powerful than Gandalf (at least before Gandalf ascends to the White). Is this so? Once Gandalf becomes Gandalf the White is he Sarumon’s equal or better?

  5. Speaking of ascending to the white it would seem there is more to it than a vote of who rules Isengard. Am I correct in assuming the wizard needs to achieve something or be granted more power to wear the white?

  6. More on ascending to the white. Just what happened between Gandalf killing the Balrog and coming back as Gandalf the White? I am of the impression that he actually died but was sent back. Certainly to Gandalf’s mind a helluva lot of time passed for him whereas to everyone else a few days passed. Does Gandalf even remember or know what he was up to between killing the Balrog and returning to Middle Earth?

  7. Why is it that Gandalf uses a sword? Actually I think it’s kinda cool he’s a bad ass with a sword and useful for this and that but he’s a wizard and a powerful one. Powerful enough to be one of the few single entities on Middle Earth that can go mano-y-mano with a Balrog and kill it. 99% of the time though Gandalf does nothing especially magical beyond creating light. Surlely he’s had occasion where things were bleak in the books (such as fighting a zillion orcs in Moria) that it would be suitable to start in with the lightning or fireballs or teleportation or something. Is there some restrictions to his use of power? I can see that he might be exceedingly careful in its use but c’mon…Moria, Helm’s Deep…the list goes on. I keep waiting for him to open a can of Whoop-Ass and he never does. What gives?

I think that’s good for starters…

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Get yourself a copy of Silmarillion for lots of insite into the Wizards of Middle Earth. I’m not sure my memory is acurate enough to quote you anything here. A goggole search for gandalf silmarillion saruman history will return loads of info though.

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Until one of the more learned members comes along, here is a bit about the Istari (Wizards).

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Before I start, understand that the Istari (wizards) are not just really cool humans with a few spells up their sleeves. They are extensions and expressions of well, God. IOW, they are another sort of creature – immortal spirits that “put on” flesh. They are not standard swords-and-sorcery epic characters.

  1. There are 5 Istari: Gandalf and Saruman you know, but Radagast the Brown shows up in the LoTR book, though not the movie, and there are also Alatar and Pallando, the two Blue Wizards

  2. Gandalf, Saruman and the other Istari came into Middle-Earth (as physical beings) about 2000 years before the War of the Ring.

  3. See #1

  4. Gandalf the White becomes more powerful than Saruman.

  5. The colors are not direct indications of orders, such as karate belts. Gandalf is not “promoted”. He dies and is sent back by the greater Powers of the world to complete his task.

  6. See #5

  7. Tolkein did not write any “whup ass” scenes. Gandalf does impressive things, but see the comments in The Encyclopedia of Arda or CK Dexter Haven’s comments pon magic in this thread.

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Just as an aside IIRC it is mentioned somewhere that Saruman was the first Wizard to arrive in Middle Earth, and Gandalf was the last. Not that this indicates how old they really are of course…apparently they always had the form of old men.

Re question #6: I think the consensus is that Gandalf really did die and was given new life. I believe it has been argued on these boards that in Tolkien’s universe only Illuvatar (God) had the power to send him back. I don’t have a link but I was convinced by the evidence when I read it.

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  1. Besides being Istari, Gandalf and Saruman are also Maia, a race of beings created by the god Illuvatar before the creation of the earth. They are essentially angels/demigods.

  2. Gandalf is basically a messenger/employee of God. It’s not his job to throw around fireballs, it’s to inspire the peoples of Middle earth to rise up and fight Evil[sup]TM[/sup]. I don’t remember exactly, but I think it does say somewhere (either in LOTR or the Silmarillion), that the Istari were forbidden from over-using ther demigodly powers when they were sent over.

For the rest, what paperbackwriter said. And I second the recommendation to browse through the Encyclopedia of Arda.

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Good summary. But of course the entire reason Gandalf is sent back as Gandalf the White instead of Gandalf the Grey is because Saruman has vacated the office by his betrayal. So yes, Gandalf the White has indeed been “promoted,” and the colors do imply a hierarchy. This is why Gandalf make such a big deal about it when he reveals his new “true colors” to Saruman in the book:

(SPOILERS for the ROTK movie coming up!)

“‘Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.’”

Then he magically breaks Saruman’s staff.

That’s pretty clear to me: white = the color of the head of the order, no color = out of the order. Gandalf was promoted, and his first job with his new title was to fire his former boss. :slight_smile:

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Thanks for the answers (and links) so far.

I was just wheeling around the Two Towers DVD and came across a portion I had previously missed (or rather didn’t register). Gandalf is bemoaning his lack of time to get things done and says he has lived the span of 300 mens lives (and now he’s rushed is the point). If we figure on an average lifespan for men in Middle Earth to 70 years that makes Gandalf 21,000 years old!

Also, as to the color not denoting rank or power why is Gandalf sent back to Middle Earth as Gandalf the White? When he confronts Theodin and battles Sarumon for control of Theodin’s mind Sarumon says something to the effect that Gandalf the Grey can’t defeat him. At this point Gandalf kinda says, “Yeah…except that I’m Gandalf the WHITE!” (throwing aside his cloak and giving Sarumon a hefty surprise). The way they are talking about it seems like the color denotes something of how powerful they are in relation to each other.

Another question:

  1. How is Sarumon beguiled to the Dark Side (so to speak). I would think any of the wizards are far too old, wise and powerful to be easily turned by Sauron…especially when Sauron was weak and spending millenia ‘re-building’ himself (in a manner of speaking). Did Sarumon seek out Sauron and strike a bargain? Did Sarumon actually beguile Sarumon somehow? Was Sarumon just plain tired of hanging out all these ages and wanted a change of pace? Sarumon mentions in the Fellowship of the Ring that he just saw the writing on the wall that Sauron would come back and rule so it was wise to cast in with him but I don’t know if it was as simple as that or he was just tryong to sway Gandalf to his side.
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That’d be a neat trick (make him more like Gollum). :smack:

Make that:

“Did Sauron actually beguile Sarumon somehow?”

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The 300 men’s lives figure means he was on Middle-Earth for 21,000 years. He existed before Middle-Earth did.

I don’t think Tolkien ever expanded too much on the nature of the colors. From LOTR, however, we can surmise that Grey < White and Color > No Color. White apparently denotes the most powerful wizard, so if Gandalf is wearing white, what does that mean about Saruman? (A: He’s been fired.)

  1. IIRC, Saruman was corrupted through his studies of the One Ring and the palantir that he could talk to Sauron through. (Sauron is way more powerful than Saruman or Gandalf at this point.) IOW, he started studying unwholesome things and was eventually corrupted by them.
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Forgot to add: the palantir was that black globe on the stand in FOTR. I think originally there were 9 of them, and the good guys used to talk to each other through them. However, in the past they were scattered, and they are not all accounted for at the time of FOTR (as Gandalf states). Since Saruman got corrupted by looking through his, Sauron must have had possession of at least one of the palantirs.

A palantir connects people on a deeper level than a telephone, though. If a weak person was talking to/communing with someone powerful, the powerful person could compel them to stay there. Also, the powerful folk can exert their powers of influence through the palantir, if they chose. Presumably this is what Sauron did to Saruman.

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Oh yeah…just to clear something up…

I don’t mean to imply by my asking why Gandalf doesn’t throw fireballs around to suggest the books should have had him blasting stuff like Gandalf the Terminator. I just mean to say that it seems there is occasion for him to let loose once in awhile. In Moriah when they are facing a zillion orcs and cave trolls he’s just having atthem with a sword. The Ring bearer is in serious danger and the hope of Middle Earth with him. It just seems like that would be a good time to use a bit of magic. When Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet Gandalf the White for the first time in the forest thinking he is Sarumon they try to kill him. Gandalf deflects the arrows and hetas-up Aragorn’s sword making him drop it. Obviously Gandalf can go to town with the magic (not to mention when he actually does fight the Balrog) but seems overly reluctant to want to and that always puzzled me.

More questions (but not wizard related):

  1. What is the scoop with the Balrog. Intelligent demigod thing or just a really powerful nasty thing?

  2. Is Tom Bombadil a Maia or Istari?

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  1. White does seem to represent the most powerful wizard, or possibly the official head of the “order”, but it’s not clear that the other colors have any special significance.

As far as I’ve been able to determine, Gandalf has been in ME in (more-or-less) human form for about 2000 years (not 21,000, your math is off). But I’m not familiar with the quote you mentioned, AFAIK it’s not in the Book.

  1. Saruman (note spelling) has been studying the Ring for a long time, and has gradually developed an interest in having that kind of power for himself. He has also been using the palantir, which helps Sauron influence him; Sauron is weak compared to his former power, but he’s still more than a match for any one of the wizards. Also, Saruman is not quite as much a loyal servant of Sauron as the movie makes him appear – he’s working for the Dark Lord, partly because, as the movie suggests, he thinks the Good Guys can’t possibly win, but he also has some hopes of cheating Sauron and grabbing the Ring for himself.
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  1. The Balrog is in origin a Maia, like the Istari, so it’s a really powerful, nasty, intelligent, minor-demigod/monster thing.

  2. Nobody knows. Tom doesn’t seem fit neatly into any of the existing categories. Tolkien geeks have major fights over this question. IMHO, the best answer is that Tom Bombadil is just Tom Bombadil.

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Again, pick up a copy of The Silmarillion. Yes, it’s a long, somewhat tedious read, but it answers nearly all your questions. Basically, Saruman, after becoming the head of the Council of the Wise (or White Council), began to study the lore of rings and ring-making and gradually coveted The One for his own. He pursuaded the Council that the Ring would eventually wind up in the Sea, never to be found, all the while sending out his spies to try and locate it. So there was never any single event that turned Saruman evil, at least not within the scope of The Silmarillion or LotR.

Regarding questions 9 & 10… just spend a bunch of time over at TheOneRing.net’s Q&A. Nearly all your questions are covered there.

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Whack a Mole: Though it is never explicitly stated in either the book or the movie, it’s hinted that Gandalf used magic during his charge at Helm’s Deep. In the book it says, “The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled [the enemy] with madness” – which a pretty bizarre reaction to an old geezer on a horse unless there’s more going on than meets the eye.

In the movie, Gandalf glows with a magical light which terrifies the orcs.

(Yes, the sun is also rising behind Gandalf, but in fact Gandalf explicitly glows in other parts of the movie as well–when he meets Aragorn & co. in Fangorn, for example, and when he reveals his white robe to Theoden. In both cases the light is shown as overpowering.)

This is pretty much the way Tolkien depicts magic in LOTR – by subtle implication, not by saying, “And then Gandalf cast a spell.” (Another example: Gandalf’s “You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire…” when confronting the Balrog is probably some kind of warding incantation, and not just trash talk.)

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I thought I mentioned this already, but I’ll say it again. It’s not that Gandalf couldn’t do more magic, it’s that he wasn’t allowed.

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I don’t think so. Wumpus just before your post mentioned some magical stuff from Gandalf. I mentioned when he deflects arrows and burns Aragorn’s sword out of his hand. Gandalf has a wizard duel with Saruman. Gandalf certainly pulls magic into the fray when he’s battling the Balrog.

My point is Gandalf does use magic and use it for defense and offense. Since he clearly can use it I just wondered at his choices of when he uses it. Balrog is a no brainer but I would have thought he’d do more in defense of Frodo. After all…without Frodo everyone is screwed…end of story.

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If you are referring to the fight in the tower – staff thrusts and wizards flying back into the doors – this was just in the movie, not in the book. In the book, Gandalf tells the story of his confrontation with Saruman, a verbal argument, and Saruman just takes Gandalf captive, and has his guards take Gandalf to the top of Orthanc.

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I think some explanation of the divisions of the Powers would help:

Iluvatar: Also know as Eru: “The One” i.e., God. Creator of the World and source of Life and Power

The Valar: The greater Powers that came into the world and took physical form to help with its creation and to combat evil. They reside in a part of the world and are tied to it until its final destruction. Their power and strength is directly derived from Eru.

The Maia: The secondary powers that assist the “children of Iluvatar” (e.g., men, elves, etc.) in resisting evil. These are also spirits that have taken physical form. Unlike the Valar, their forms are more-or-less fixed. Their physical bodies can be destroyed, but this will not destroy the Maia. Their power is derived from Eru through the Valar, sort of.

Melkor/Morgoth was a Valar, and one of the most powerful. He was the first Dark Lord in Middle Earth. Eventually, the other Valar destroyed him. His lieutenant was Sauron, who then became the next Dark Lord. Again, he was the most powerful of the Maia. The Istari and the Balrogs were also Maia.

A key (and the point of this post) is that the Istari were sent to help, inspire, and counsel the other races – not engage in single combat or to shape the world. It is ultimately up to the inhabitants of Middle-Earth themselves, the elves, men, dwarves and even hobbits, to save their world. For instance, even though Gandalf is needed to help defeat the orcs at Helm’s Deep, the men of Rohan have to do their part. They don’t just sit back while Gandalf wipes the orcs out – they charge into the battle and do most of the work themselves.

I’m not one of the nitpickers that is disappointed the the movies differ from the books (e.g., Roger Ebert), but there are changes. Some of what you see in the movies is different, as it has to be. The wizards duel is one of these. You can find more by going here and here.

Yes I love that site for Tolkein reference.

When I earlier said that the colors were not like karate belts, I did not mean to imply that they were meaningless. Just that there is no set path of promotion and advancement through the colors. They are reflections of the power of the individuals wearing them. Radagast is not less powerful because he wears brown; Radagast’s power is “limited” because of who he is and what he takes interest in.