LOTR: Questions about the wizards (possible spoilers)

Cafe Society
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Maybe someone can check the book on this. I checked the movie and have detailed what happened there below. I realize movies often diverge from the source material…sometimes so far as to make the source almost unrecognizable. Peter Jackson and company seem to have done a better job than most movies at staying true to the source but clearly even they have taken some liberties. This particular piece woud seem somewhat egregious however. Not really necessary to the story line or dialogue it’s more of an aside from Gandalf. Still…who knows…maybe the script writers did toss some junk in randomly. I suppose only the book can say for certain if someone checks (my copy has been buried in a box for so long I’m not sure I’d know where to start so I won’t bother…take hours to dig up). I’ll also leave it to you (the reader) to interpret what this means.

FROM: The Two Towers DVD
CHAPTER 18
TIME: 1:08:45
SETUP: Gandalf is preparing to leave Rohan and is giving Aragorn instructions to look for him to the east on the fifth morning (they’re in the stables as Gandalf is preparing Shadowfax).

“Three hundred lives of men I’ve walked this earth, and now I have no time.”

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I’m not so sure of that. After the fall of Numenor, where Sauron’s physical form is destroyed, it’s stated that he could no longer assume a form fair to men’s eyes. This suggests first that he used to be able to do so, and second, that he might still be able to assume various foul forms. The Maiar are certainly less powerful than the Valar, but I’m not sure what, if anything, is the qualitative difference between them.

To further amplify on the heirerarchy:
When Gandalf mentions the Secret Flame, that’s an aspect of Eru Iluvatar, and is what gives a thing “reality”. Roughly analogous to the Holy Spirit.

Elbereth Gilthoniel, about whom the Elves sing, is also one of the Valar, as is Orome, who’s mentioned in passing in the books.

The Maiar mentioned in the Lord of the Rings are the Five Wizards (Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast by name, plus a reference to “the staves of the Five Wizards”, so we know there are two more), Sauron, and the Balrog. In addition, the personifications of the Sun and Moon are Maiar (the Sun is female and the Moon male in Tolkien’s mythos), as is Melian, distant ancestress to both Aragorn and Elrond. Collectively, the Valar and the Maiar are called the Ainur, and they all existed before the World began.

Then there are also the fey, beings which are a part of the World, and are a sort of incarnation of some aspect of Creation. Ungoliant, mother of Shelob, was a huge spider that was the essense of Darkness, and Tom Bombadil’s wife Goldberry, the river’s daughter, is probably also in this category. If you consider the mountain Caradhas as a malevolent being, it’s probably fey as well. There aren’t too many fey in anny of the later works, but they show up a lot in the Lost Tales.

Tom Bombadil might arguably be in any of the above categories, but I personally think that he’s in a category all his own. There’s little to no evidence one way or the other.

And then there are Elves and Men, the Children of Iluvatar, and Dwarves, the Adopted Children. Hobbits are actually a subset of Men.

Back to the Wizards. Perhaps the best way to understand the relationship between Gandalf and Saruman is that Gandalf the White is what Saruman was supposed to be in the first place. Gandalf even says as much in the book: “You might say that I am Saruman, Saruman as he was meant to be” (from memory).

As for Gandalf’s use of magic, in The Hobbit, he does use some flashy magic when the party is ambushed by Goblins (= Orcs) while crossing the mountains. We’re not sure exactly what he did, but it was a flash of light that killed all the goblins around him. But that was after all fourteen of his comrades had been kidnapped while they slept, and a large number of goblins were going after him alone. In the book of Lord of the Rings, the fight with the goblins in Moria was much less serious: They didn’t meet any orcs until they were in the room that they shut the door on them, and they were able to keep most of them out. They only outnumbered the party by two or three to one, as I recall, which isn’t much for goblins, so swords were good enough. So I guess what I’m saying is that Gandalf doesn’t use magic unless he needs to.

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From the site paperbackwriter mentions once or twice (:)) above, and from Appendix E of RotK, Gandalf and the other wizards appear about 1000 years into the Third Age. He departed at the end of the Third Age, in 3021, a span of 2021 years.

Thus we can conclude that the average life span of Men was 6.736666666 years. Aragorn, Boromir, Theoden, Faramir, Eomer, and all the other men were certainly lucky to live as long as they did! :smiley:

Of course, what Gandalf means by, “I’ve walked this earth” could include the time before he appeared in Middle-Earth as Gandalf. However, to my knowledge, there is no account of his travels as a Maiar during that time.

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7, actually. “Seven stones, and seven stars, and one white tree.” They were brought to Middle-Earth by Elendil and his sons and were originally used by the rulers of Gondor and Arnor. Saruman got his when he moved into Isengard (it sorta came with the tower) and Sauron got his when the Nazgul captured Minas Ithil from Gondor.

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Tom’s entry in the Encyclopedia of Arda comes to the conclusion that “we just don’t know” but it has most of the conjectures, plausible and implausible.

One scene in the book left out of the movie was when Gandalf discover’s Saruman’s betrayal. Saruman reveals his cloak and it is all colors, shifting and changing. G-man simply comments, “I liked white better.” Minor exchange but it would have been neat to see.

On Saruman’s fate:

Presumably Wormtongue will still off him but I thought it was most poignant when that shrouded figure rises out of his body, looking to the west a moment before a breeze comes from that direction and dissipates it. Man, I almost felt sorry for him; he doesn’t even get to sit in the Halls of Mandos like the dead Elves, he’s just . . . gone, a terrible fate for a Maia.

DD

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And renamed it Minas Morgul. We’ll probably see Minas Morgul in ROTK, along with a third palantir…but I’ve said too much already. :slight_smile:

There was also a palantir somewhere near the Grey Havens, that only looked toward the Undying Lands. Elves would go there on pilgrimages, to look in the palantir and see visions of the UL and the Valar. The elves Frodo & Sam see in the extended edition of FOTR (Gildor Inglorion, in the book) are returning from such a pilgrimage.

The other 3 stones were lost in a shipwreck, or are in somebody’s attic, or something like that.

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Regarding using magic to help with the goblins in Moria…

By this time Gandalf has just finished reading the book of Moria. He knows the dwarves awoke, “Durin’s Bane”. (could be wrong on the dwarf’s name?) He is even reluctant to go into Moria in the first place. He knows there is something really nasty and probably has a good idea what it is. My guess is that he figures Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli, and Legolas are enough for the goblins and he’s saving himself for a possible fight with the Balrog.

Gandalf actually does use magic a quite a bit. It’s just not flashy stuff… well, except for the fireworks! :slight_smile:

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DesertDog, I’m with you. Hopefully PJ will work that image into his version of Saruman’s fate.

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Sorry to nitpick but…the Book of Records didn’t say anything about Durin’s Bane. It’s wasn’t until Legolas sees the balrog that they knew he was there. I mean, it was “known” that great evil lurked in Moria, but the last words in the book are “they are coming”…referring to the orcs.

Whack-a-mole, I hate to say it, but the best way to wade through the Middle Earth is to read the books. Putting it delicately, Peter Jackson made some liberal changes to the Two Towers. So don’t use the movies as a guide to Tolkien’s works. It’s a great starting place, but they’re just an interpretation of the books, not 100% accurate portrayal.

And…nitpicking more…

paperbackwriter I thought Morgoth was defeated, and not destroyed. He was put “outisde” the walls of night (?) and a ceaseless guard is kept upon the walls. I didn’t think you could destroy a Vala…

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Also, (something that was left out of the film) Gandalf does some impressive boo-tay kicking on Weathertop, chucking lightning storms about and such, but is described in a second-hand reference. The assumption however is that he was doing some serious nazgul and orc barbecuing.

It has always seemed that Gandalf does the barest minimum of magic and combat only when it is needed, like Caine in Kung Fu, but when pushed to mortal danger he slips into Grasshopper-flashback mode and gets all Shaolin on their backsides.

I’ve always thought of it as sort of a Trek Prime Directive type of thing, guidance and nudging, but he ultimately must let the Middle Earthers resolve their own challenges and destinies. He only plays unfairly when other Maia are playing unfairly (e.g. balrogs, Saruman, Sauron), but if it wasn’t for those other Maia that he tries to keep honest, he would have nothing else to do but light shows at hobbit birthday parties.

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Also, Gandalf the White is much less reluctant to show off than Gandalf the Grey. GtG, as noted, limits himself to starting fires, putting horsies on the raging waters of Bruinen, and a spell on a door in Moria. GtW charges into battle at Pelennor Fields, shooting beams of light from his hand.

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I’m going to try to add to minor points that I haven’t seen anyone address:

Actually, Isengard wasn’t always “a wizard hangout”.

The Numenoreans are the men (that Elendil came from) that came to Middle Earth, bringing the “Seven stones, and seven stars, and one white tree.” They set up a big mondo kingdom of men, and built stuff like the city of Minas Tirith, and Isengard, among other things. (They later decline into, by the time of the books, the kingdom of Gondor and the Rangers living in the North, where the Northern branch of their people was once upon a time).

The wizards (Istari), quite separate from that, don’t really have a “home”, a “base”, but go where they are needed. At some point, Saruman decides it would be useful to hang out in Isengard - perhaps because he knows about the palantir (seeing stone) there, perhaps not. The men in the area, having long since retreated from the area, are more than happy to have this powerful (they were right about this) good (they were becoming wrong about this) wizard hold Isengard and keep it safe. And he apparently finds some lore there, and the palantir, and so forth.

So Isengard isn’t really the “wizard hangout”, so much as Saruman’s personal hangout. Of course, as head of the order, other wizards will be in contact a lot; and since he’s the only one to settle in one spot, that’s an easy place to find him, so it makes sense that they meet him there - but because Saruman’s there, not because Isengard is there.

Let’s see, also:

I see kind of two reasons for this. First, we see from the books that using his “magic”, makes Gandalf tired - it takes something out of him - and makes him detectable somehow. (Especially reread, or rewatch, the Moria section.) Just as sometimes he would prefer to use a torch rather than a magic light, to conserve his energy and avoid magical detection, a sword would serve the same purpose. This isn’t a role playing game, where he’s not allowed to use a sword because he’s a wizard.

Second, this isn’t just any sword he has, it’s an ancient magical sword made by the elves. As such, it’s a source of power in itself, and Gandalf (or presumably, any wizard) knows how to use other powers to supplement his own. Just like Saruman tries to use the palantir, and wants to use the ring, and Gandalf … well, that would be a spoiler about the 3rd book, I guess.

While the Silmarillion is a thorough source for a lot of answers to these questions, if you don’t feel like slogging through it, I’ll point out that the appendices at the end of Return of the King have a lot of these answers in there.

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Two were lost in a shipwreck, the ones from Annuminas and Amon Sul. The third was the palantir from Osgiliath, which was lost at the bottom of the river Anduin when the city was burned in a civil war.

Why yes, I do have the appendices from ROTK handy…

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I was under the impression from reading the books that the reason Gandalf was frugal with the magic in FotR was that he didn’t want to give away his location and possibly tip off Sauron (or some other baddy). I seem to recall a line after he lights a fire with magic when they were trapped on the mountain in the snow that was something like “I might just as well sent up a signal saying ‘Gandalf is here’”.

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I haven’t read the books for a few years again, so I don’t mind missing something by a few lines. :slight_smile:

However, I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think that Gandalf knew that something nasty could be showing up. The Encyclopedia of Arda mentions (from various cites of Tolkien) attempts to reclaim Khazad-dûm. Considering that armies failed, the list of things that it could be had to be relatively short. I would think that it would be safe to think that Gandalf had enough knowledge and wisdom to know that he needed to save his strength.

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Just to nitpick, but the first army to try and reclaim Khazad-dûm was Balin’s. Prior to that, no dwarf had even entered Khazad-dûm since they abandoned it save poor old Thror.

Gandalf himself, however, had been though the mines once before, so it’s reasonable to assume that he at least suspected something nasty was wandering around. He had no way of knowing what it was, however.

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To further hijack this thread, from TEoArda:

The monster of Moria - a Balrog of Morgoth, as was later known - lurked alone in Moria for nearly five hundred years. After that time, the old city of Khazad-dûm began to be peopled again, but not by Dwarves. Sauron directed his creatures there, and it began to fill with orcs and trolls. Though the orcs’ numbers were greatly reduced in the Battle of Nanduhirion, fought in the valley beneath Moria’s East-gate in III 2799, the Balrog could not be bested, and Khazad-dûm remained a citadel of darkness.

This is a little ambiguous to me, but it seems to indicate that there was conflict with the Balrog before Balin’s attempt.

Granted, this is pure fiction and is subject to some interpretation. However, I don’t remember seeing it said that the dwarves were wiped out to the last dwarf when Durin’s Bane was awakened. There would have been witnesses.

I would think that sometime during the 500 years before Gandalf encountered the balrog that he and some of the other powers that be (Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Saruman, Aragorn, etc.) probably sat around and hypothesized about the nature of Durin’s Bane. After all, there aren’t that many things in Middle Earth that would be able to single handedly kick the dwarves out of Khazad-dûm. Obviously the dwarves would have recognized a dragon.

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Whack-A-Mole: Sorry, I was just sorta taking your word for it that he had walked Middle-Earth for x number of years. My point was that for the wizards, “walked the earth” != “existed”. F’rinstance, I seem to recall that when the Elves leave Valinor in The Simarillion, Olorin (one of Gandalf’s other names) says something or other to them. As so many others have said, The Simarillion will give you a slightly better idea of what the heck is going on.

Orbifold: My bad. Dunno where I got 9 from.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole *
**A few questions regarding the wizards in The Lord of the Rings. I’ll say right here that some of this might constitute spoilers if you’ve never read the books ro seen the movies. If you have gotten at least to the Two Towers (book or movie) I think you’re ok.

  1. How many wizards are there in Middle Earth?**

According to the Essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales, no number is ever given, but “the chiefs among them were five”: Saruman, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando, and Gandalf, in the order they arrived in Middle Earth.

Contrary to the Harry-Potter implication of the name, “wizard” is not something you do but something you are – they’re bodily-incarnated Maiar, “enlisted grade” angels, as opposed to the Valar, the “general officer grade” archangels in charge of Earth.

Isengard properly has nothing to do with wizards per se. It’s an exclave of Gondor retained when they ceded the intervening territory to the Riders to constitute the kingdom of Rohan, turned over by one of Denethor’s predecessors to Saruman back when he was one of the good guys. (This is why Gandalf defers to Aragorn regarding Isengard and the palantir – they’re properly part of his domain.)

Both are precisely as old as Creation itself, and arrived in Middle Earth from the Undying Lands about Third Age 1000 (i.e., they’re both pushing 2000 years at the time of the stories – no Mel Brooks jokes, please).

Radagast is “the Brown” and the other two are the Istryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. Each had an appointed task in Middle Earth, connected with their color. Whether the color signifies rank is debatable; Tolkien never says. But Gandalf returns as “the White” because, Saruman having fallen into evil, Gandalf is to replace him and complete the work of both.

He died and his spirit returned to the Undying Lands. He was sent back to finish the job, armed with Saruman’s power as well. Details? You’d have to ask Gandalf, or the Elder King himself. And I think the advice is apt: “Do not presume to meddle in the affairs of wizards…”

As regards Gandalf’s powers, there are specific limitations on what a wizard may and may not do – they are not to use their angelic authority to overawe, but to strengthen, cajole, guide, and support the good. (I ought to know. ;)) Somebody may find the exact quote and post it.

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The Tolkien Companion (J.Tyler) says the Secret Fire of Anor is ‘a mystical aspect of the Sun, which the Istari formally swore obedience to’.
Also Gandalf had been given one of the 3 Elvish Rings of Power (Narya, Ring of Fire) by Cirdan the shipwright. Its powers are not stated, but I think it’s reasonable that it provided help versus the Balrog’s fire.