I’m re-reading LOTR for the first time in a long time, in conjunction with this site | You are not prepared.
Anyway, I’ve come up with some questions that I’d like Tolkien Doper opinions on (please) -
Aragorn’s healing powers. How strong were they? were they ever explained? He could heal in ROTK pretty well, but not when Frodo was attacked on Weathertop.
Premonitions, specifically - why did Aragorn think it was dangerous for Gandalf in particular to go to Moria?
Do you feel Tolkien cheated as a writer by bringing Gandalf back? His fall and death at the bridge in Moria is one of the best-written, powerful passages in the book. (& one of the best handled in the films) Did you feel cheated as a reader when he came back? Personally, I think Gandalf the White is very different from Gandalf the Grey. And I can see The Powers That Be rewarding Gandalf when he defeated the Balrog by sending him back to complete his task of helping the folks of Middle Earth. But in context of reading the books - a bit of a cheat.
Did you want more info about Radagast, Gwaihir, Southrons - or do you appreciate that lots of Middle Earth is left mysterious (and the book isn’t lots longer).
any other discussion questions welcomed, although “What ifs” probably belong in another thread. (What if Barliman had delivered Gandalf’s letter? for example)
I think both he and Gandalf strongly suspected that whatever killed off the Kingdom of the Dwarves in Khazad-dum (and Balin’s recolonization expedition) was seriously bad-ass.
Regarding question 1, he needed the Kingsfoil/Athelas leaf to heal people, which was only usable by the rightful king. The wound Frodo received on Weathertop was from a weapon with what could be described as dark magical powers, and were beyond the skill of Aragorn to heal, although he was able to keep Frodo alive until he reached Rivendell.
As for Gandalf, he is a being equivalent to an angel or demigod, and as such can’t die. He was sent by Eru to perform a particular task, and as his “death” was not caused by him failing that task, he was allowed to return to Middle-Earth. I think it makes a good contrast with Saruman, who failed his task and will not return to Middle-Earth.
Aragorn didn’t have any special “powers” of healing - he has knowledge that most people didn’t have, and more practical experience applying it than most due to his age (he is in his 90s at the time of LOTR), personal history, and profession. In addition he had some degree of foresight though it seems to come and go but is occasionally useful. He knew immediately at Weathertop than an enchanted, poisoned blade would not respond to his skills which were essentially herbalist and not magical.
In fact even in ROTK he had no special powers, except superior knowledge of the properties of athelas - the Gondorian physicians had lost this knowledge and knew of no treatment for the Black breath. I believe anyone could have healed the black breath with Athelas, except perhaps in Eowyn’s case because she wished to die. In that case Aragorn called her back where others might not have been able to do so. That was because of their personal relationship and not because of any special power.
Yes and no. Yes I want to know about all of those other people and places. What about the 2 wizards that went into the east? What other rings of power were there other than the Great Ones? Who was Tom Bombadbil really? And so on. I know some of these are answered to varying degrees in the appendices, the Silmarillion, Tolkien’s letters and other posthumous works.
But really the charm of Middle Earth for me is that we don’t know the whole story. The glimpses of the larger world that we get in the snippets of poetry and half told stories hint at a living world where there is more to be discovered. I think the reader’s own imagination does a better job of filling in the blanks than any writer could do, even Tolkien.
I’d offer the Star Wars universe up in comparison. I think the original trilogy does much the same thing as Tolkien. We hear about the Galactic Senate, Clone Wars, and Bothan spies and other mysteries without any explanation of what they really are. There’s a real sense that while the story we are seeing on the screen is pivotal that there are other important things going on as well. Where Star Wars fails though is in the expanded universe (and to a lesser extent in the prequels). Now there is a novel about nearly every character or planet that was ever mentioned in the movies. There’s little mystery anymore. Despite having 100 novels set in that universe explaining all kinds of things about it, the universe seems small.
So, no I think having much of the world unexplained is a benefit.
Not really the same thing. In RofK, Aragorn was mostly healing the influence of the Black Breath, the terror caused by Nazgul. Frodo was actually wounded by an enchanted weapon, a Morgul Knife which left a fragment in the wound.
Aragorn’s healing powers seem to be a mix of practical knowledge and herbology with a spiritual/magical component (he calls for Faramir before making use of the Athelas).
Premonitions and prophecy are part of the mythology of Middle Earth. There are quite a few instances in the book. Malbeth the Seer predicts the Witch-Kings fate and the ride of the Grey Company. Boromir and Faramir recieve a prophetic riddle in a dream. etc.
Maybe if I was a book critic I’d have a problem with it, but I’m not. Gandalf is a powerful presence in the latter half of the book, and it’s better for his inclusion. It’s not really a cheat (as it would be if, say, Boromir sprung back to life at a crucial juncture). Gandalf is an angelic being in human form, and it’s a story set in a mythological world.
The invented history of Middle Earth is what makes it such a rich story. Only some of this is explored in the book itself, being only hinted at, and that is a good thing. The appendices, Silmarillion and other works such as Unfinished Tales and Tolkien’s letters flesh it out more.
I believe that Aragorn had a little bit of special powers, in terms of healing, premonition, and other things (like stirring men’s souls and commanding the Army of the Dead). That was because he was a descendant of Numenorians, who possessed many talents that lesser races of men did not. These little touches in the story were there to remind us of this fact. Or to send us to the Appendix to figure it out.
Not at all. Gandalf’s return was an important part of the spiritual component of the story. Not only was he a non-human, angelic being, but his willingness to sacrifice himself for the defeat of evil and good of all got him promoted to the next level up. It was also a pretty classic near-death experience.
On a personal note, when I first read the books, when I was in jurnior high school, I was devasted when Gandalf fell in Moria, cried for days, and couldn’t keep reading until I peeked ahead and got a hint that he survived. So I was incredibly grateful, not disappointed, that he survived.
I still want to know more about the other wizards.
Even more than that, I think they suspected actually a Balrog. Gandalf didn’t seem totally surprised to encounter one (in the way that, for example, Legolas was).
Edit: I’ll just add that I always felt that richness of the story in part depended on Tolkien’s having worked out so much back story. I think it’s awesome that we can go and investigate so much of the world of Middle Earth beyond the LOTR. It gives the story … I’m sure not what the right word is, but something like credibility.
I, too, wish we could have learned more about what happened to Radagast, the extent of his involvement with the War of the Ring (or lack thereof*), and also the Blue Wizards. They’re intriguing characters.
*A fanwank I’ve always liked is that Radagast may have been responsible for the serendipitous appearance of the Eagles at certain, key moments.
Aragorn’s healing powers were beyond that of other mortal men of his age. They came from being a descendant of Luthien, daughter of Melian the Maia. Athelas enhanced those abilities. Note Aragorn’s words in FOTR.
Aragorn knew that something big and old and nasty was in Moria. And the Dunedain were known to occasionally produce seers. Remember Malbeth? He predicted Arvedui would be the last king of Arnor, either rising higher by becoming king of a Reunited realm or by losing the kingdom. JRRT was big on foresight.
Gandalf coming back resonated strongly with JRRT’s own theological beliefs, and meshed perfectly within the overall story arc which began in The Silmarillion.
JRRT did give info on the other wizards (Alatar and Pallando, aka Morinehtar and Rómestámo.) You just have to dig through tons of other material to find it. Same with lots of other things he mentioned in passing. Even Queen Beruthiel and her cats got more written about them at one time. If JRRT had lived another 500 years, he’d have written it all down in detail, no doubt.
I wish we had more information on the Blue Wizards etc., and I’m glad we don’t.
Let me explain: In any real world, there are always unexplained mysteries. People like me are driven to solve those mysteries, but when we do, we always find yet more mysteries behind them, so even if each mystery eventually gets explained, there are always some that are not. By leaving in some unexplained mysteries, then, Tolkien makes Middle-Earth more real.
You seem dismissive of Aragorn’s powers of healing, saying they’re not special. Got any cites to back that up? Especially since JRRT did rather go out of his way to give him special powers in this regard.
To explain this further, Melian was a goddess, with the powers that implies. Aragorn is a distant but direct descendant of hers, and it does make him more than a normal man - that’s why the people of Numenor were special, basically.
Melian was also Elrond’s great-great-grandmother (if I’ve counted correctly), and he is her closest descendant still on Middle-Earth, which is presumably why is powers are so great. Here’s the genealogy, if anyone wants to work out the exact proportion of elven, human, and divine blood that Elrond carries - I think I might struggle…
Also that whole deal where the Valar rewarded the Men who fought on their side against Melkor in the War of Wrath their own island homeland nearer the Undying Lands and granted them lives double or more than that of their kindred. That was kinda special, too. They weren’t all descended from Luthien.
Yes, this. JRRT definitely considered that the Children of Luthien had at least the potential for special powers in this regard, via their descent from an angelic being who was involved in the making of the world. I’d call that ‘supernatural’. At least from the point of view of mortal men.
