First, thank you to everyone who had responded to my earlier posts. I am impressed by the thoroughness of the answers and feel I learned much of Tolkien’s lore.
So, as before, I come from a position of relative ignorance, having only seen the movies and not finishing the books (except The Hobbit). Feel free to educate me!
Did Gandalf and Galadriel have a thing at some point? Their interactions in the movies are very tender, like former lovers who split up but still love each other.
Whatever happened to Radagast the Brown? Did he graduate to a different color ever?
Why did Elrond stay behind in Rivendell when his people were heading to the boats? Was he just “locking up” or something?
Does anyone else think it is odd that over thousands and thousands of years, none of the Elves or anyone else decided to just take out Shelob? I don’t think Sam actually killed her, but she didn’t seem invulnerable. Is it some kind of balance of nature thing, that she was allowed to live?
Legolas vs Aragorn vs Bard in an archery contest: I’m assuming Legolas wins, but how do Aragorn and Bard rate as archers relative to each other?
No. Gandalf (Mithrandir, Olórin, etc.; pick a name :D) being a Maia makes that difficult (but not impossible: cf. Melian and King Thingol Greycloak of Doriath). But there is nothing in anything that the Professor wrote to indicate that Gandalf and Galadriel have anything but the mutual respect for each other of good friendship.
In the Lord of the Rings, he has basically “retired” to just interacting with animals, primarily birds, while living in a house somewhere in Southern Mirkwood. He looks for and finds Gandalf on Midsummer’s Eve (IIRC) of 3018, and gives Gandalf the message from Saruman that Saruman wants Gandalf to come see him. Having delivered his message, he apparently returns home, but to his credit does inform his bird friends that Gandalf is concerned about the situation. This leads directly to Gandalf’s rescue from Orthanc’s “rooftop” platform by Gwaihir the Eagle. After that, he is no longer mentioned. Presumably, after the downfall of Sauron, the remaining istari head home, but Rhadagast might have preferred to stick around.
Again, the movie’s implication that there was some sort of major trek to the ships during 3018 and 3019, which included Arwen, is NOT part of the books. It’s a dramatic device used by Jackson to over-dramatize the Aragorn-Arwen link. Elrond, of course, was not going to leave Middle-Earth until Sauron had been vanquished.
Shelob bothers no one, really. But the answer to your question is, I think, partially given by the fact that the Mirkwood elves, governed by Thranduil (Legolas’ dad), don’t wipe out the spiders in that forest, by whom the dwarves are captured during their journey eastward through Mirkwood in The Hobbit. Live and let live, they might well say.
There is no indication in the books that Aragorn is particularly good at archery. He’s very good with a sword, but I don’t think he even tries to use a bow at any point in the books.
Bard’s ability is not clear. His only claim to fame is that he hit an unprotected patch of Smaug with one arrow, an arrow Bard claims has never failed him (presumably meaning that, after it hits its target, the target always has died, so Bard can retrieve it).
I should note that it’s not clear when exactly Shelob begins to inhabit the pass that becomes known as “Spider Cleft” (Cirith Ungol). If I recall the passages in The Two Towers correctly, she may well have inhabited the area before even Sauron decided to take Mordor as his main dwelling place (around S.A. 1000). But given that Cirith Ungol has been relatively well-developed at some point during the period that the Númenorians inhabited Minas Ithil (re-named Minas Morgul later) and kept watch on Mordor (the whole first roughly 2000 years of the Third Age), and that they built the fortress of the Tower of Cirith Ungol specifically to guard against anyone trying to get into Mordor that way, it’s likely that Shelob was not so brazenly taking up an abode right at the top of the pass.
1). Unlikely. Given their natures – that is to say, they’re not human, not really, either of them, they’re more like forces of nature. Galadriel definitely looks in the film like some sort of angelic-robot-elf-slow talking-statue … thingy. Yes, Gandalf and Saruman seem like wise human wizards. But we find out that they’re not. They are also transfigured angel-minor godling-things.
2). The consensus in LOTR online discussions is that Radagast and the Blue wizards were too caught up in maintaining the status quo of a world in a pretty good state. With Sauron on the move, and Orcs rising, they didn’t stand a chance and were killed off early. Remember – Gandalf also dies (he got better,) and Saruman switches sides. That’s two of five not making the greatest showing.
3). Dunno. Waiting, I guess? Expecting Arwen to come to her senses? Get bored? Aragon dies in a accident soon?
4). And no human kingdom did that even. It seems the only D&D “adventurer” in the books and films is Aragorn. And its a big enough world to keep him busy elsewhere. It seems a little funny, that hobbits are the only “ninjas” infiltrating Mordor. That’s the story Tolkien was working with.
5). I’d go with Legolas too. But the other two, it will be very close. Some online cartoon (or was it a Family Guy) joked about the Errol Flynn *Robin Hood *“split arrow” trope.
Ha. I split your arrow in the very center. That means I’m the greatest.
No. It means you went second.
I’m expecting a lot of, “OK, best of seven, then?”
They are very old (talking centuries, if not millenia) friends and allies, and each bears one of the Three. They have a strong connection, but not a romantic one.
There’s no definitive answer on Radagast’s fate. I think it is likeliest that he either died or returned to Valinor at some point (which could be functionally the same thing, as long as the Valar weren’t too mad at him). The task of the Istari was done, so there was nothing keeping him in Middle-Earth, and in the prologue (“Note on the Shire Records”) of LotR, it says that “there is no record of the day when at last [Celeborn] sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.” That seems to imply that Radagast was no longer in Middle-Earth.
Elrond left 3 years after Arwen and Aragorn’s wedding. From the perspective of a being thousands of years old, yes, that’s pretty much just time to pack. No reason for that particular time frame is specified, but his sons Elladan and Elrohir were still there. Arwen’s choice had long been made, but theirs were still open (and indeed, it is not recorded what choice they made in the end).
She was presumably born in Ered Gorgoroth, which were mountains so nasty that even orcs wouldn’t go there, largely because Shelob’s mama, Ungoliant, was there. At the end of the War of Wrath, Ered Gorgoroth was flooded; Shelob presumably fled at that time to the lair where the hobbits encountered her. Probably no one felt like chasing her at that point, as long as she didn’t make trouble. When Sauron moved into Mordor, he decided he liked having her there.
tl;dr: She spent thousands of years not bothering anybody but a few orcs, so no one felt the need to try to take her out.
Agreed that Legolas wins. Between Aragorn and Bard in a simple contest, Aragorn wins. Aragorn has had a lot more time to practice, if nothing else. Bard’s key moment ties back to something we discussed in the other thread: subcreation, and crafted items with purpose. The Black Arrow was special, partly due to its crafting, and partly due to the meaning Bard and his ancestors invested in it. Bard would not have made his epic shot with another arrow.
How does everyone seem to know to call Saruman’s creations “Uruk-hai”? Saruman seema to name them, but Aragorn knows the term despite being out of contact with the outside world, Eomer knows it, though when he found the battle scene where the king’s son was mortally wounded he called them orcs still.
How does Gandalf keep getting his staff back? Saruman strands Gandalf on top of the Isengard tower without his staff, Gandalf makes an escape thanks to the Eagle, but then shows up at Rivendell with his staff again. Does he have a stash of spares? Did Elrond have a new one made for him? Can wizards just conjure one up somehow? He loses his staff again during the Balrog incident. I’m guessing when he was resurrected as Gandalf the White he was just somehow granted a new staff and nice white robes?
Gandalf’s staff is a prop for his disguise as the Grey Pilgrim. It has no inherent power. It’s just a stick, albeit G has friends in various parts who’d make him a really nice one I imagine
Uruk-hai is Black Speech for “orc folk”. In other words, all orcs are uruks. Indeed, almost all of the elven/human names for orcs/goblins derive from the original Quenyan orco, pl. orkor. In exile, that became urko; for the Sindarin orch, pl. yrch. Black Speech: uruk, pl. unknown. Adûnaic (Númenorian): urku; Westron (Common Speech, what everyone talks among themselves when multiple races and ethnicities are present): orka.
Since Aragorn is probably pretty proficient in certain aspects of the Black Speech, and since almost anyone would certainly know the Black Speech version of “orc”, it’s not a shock that Ëomer and Aragorn and others would commonly use the term.
Tolkien himself seems to have everyone using it to describe the more aggressive, larger orcs that began appearing in the latter part of the Third Age. IIRC, the “uruks” started showing up when Ithilien was over-run and Osgiliath was destroyed about 500 years before the events in The Lord of the Rings. They are actually a creation of Sauron (not Saruman, as the movie implies). I have usually thought that the appellation of “uruk” and “uruk-hai” by the larger orcs themselves and by their enemies was in essence a boast by the newer orcs that they were the new, improved brand of “uruk”, and everything else goblinish was just a lesser breed. Racism among the orcs, who knew?
There is no indication in the books that Gandalf is ever deprived of his staff by Saruman. Of course, that’s kind of silly; if the staff actually had power, Saruman would certainly take it from Gandalf when he imprisons him. The staff is simply something Gandalf uses to channel his energies when need be; I imagine he could do the same with most any piece of wood he found lying around.
The movies, of course, over-did the staff thing. But in the books, he does use the staff to light wood on fire (in the attempt to cross Caradhras Pass, as well as in The Hobbit when they are stuck in the trees avoiding the goblins), to create pyrotechnics to ward off the wargs on the way to Moria-gate, to create a thin, wispy light at its end in Moria, and to break the bridge in Khazad-dûm. Gandalf the White uses his staff to shoot a bolt of something fiery or light-like at the Nazgûl harassing Faramir as he and his company attempt to retreat to Minas Tirith. It’s clear he can channel his power with the staff, and one presumes Saruman has similar capabilities.
The staffs are more powerful than people think, remember Saruman’s comments about the keys and 'the staffs of all five wizards?"
I would suppose Gandalf got a new staff when he was upgraded to White.
There is no indication Saurman took Gandalf’s staff away, maybe he actually couldnt. I suppose the Eagle carried Gandalf and staff away.
As for Radagast, further writings imply he continued to help the animals and such and left at the end. Of the Five, only Gandalf really did what he was supposed to, altho there are hints that the two Blue wizards did something incredibly important in the far east, thus no more wain riders, etc to help Sauron.
wiki: *The only other reference to Radagast in The Lord of the Rings is after the Council of Elrond when it is decided to summon all the allies against Sauron together. Scouts are sent to look for help, and it is reported that Radagast is not at his home at Rhosgobel and cannot be found. Tolkien makes no mention of what has happened to Radagast, and he plays no further role in events.[5]
Tolkien wrote that Radagast gave up his mission as one of the Wizards by becoming too obsessed with animals and plants. He also wrote that he did not believe that Radagast’s failure was as great as Saruman’s.[6] However, Christopher Tolkien notes in Unfinished Tales that the assumption Radagast failed in his task may not be entirely accurate considering that he was specifically chosen by Yavanna, and he may have been assigned to protect the flora and fauna of Middle-earth, a task that would not end with the defeat of Sauron and the end of the War of the Ring.*
What do Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the Blue Wizards think that their natures are?
OK, so I get that they’re lesser maia, incarnated, to drive events in Middle Earth in a certain way. They don’t know that. But what do they think they themselves are?
I guess Gandalf knows, having died, and been re-incarnated by Eru. Or does he even know that? Does Saruman think he himself was born to human parents, had a childhood, and has simply just coincidentally lived since the awakening of the elves?
What is Saruman’s problem with the way Radagast behaves? So he eats lots of shrooms, so what? Does Saruman believe that Radagast is mortal? That he has a mortal mind to lose? If Yavanna created Radagast, to do just what he was doing, why does Saruman get to second guess it?
While we’re on this subject, what does Gandalf mean, Saruman is the head of our order? There’s exactly 5 wizards, no followers, or apprentices or trainees (in the films at least.) That’s not an order, that’s 5 guys who run Middle Earth. And its pretty clear that the witch-kings or reported necromancers have nothing like Gandalf’s or Saruman’s power.
Oh, I think they know they are sorta immortal- they dont die of old age or disease. They were aware of their mission for the “gods” but not of their past lives and powers. They could be killed in their new body.
Saruman by then was insane. His communication with Sauron thru the palantir had driven him nutso, and he attempted to recruit Radagast and Gandalf over. Radagast apparently didnt believe or understand*, so Saruman used him as a messenger. Gandalf saw the problem.
Saruman was appointed leader of the 5 with the most power. Gandalf was less powerful until he came back.
Not exactly. It took the whole White Council to kick out the Necromancer. Of course they werent sure he was Sauron. Apparently Gandalf was about even with the Witch King- Gandalf couldnt kill or take him down, and vice versa.
and Radagast’s mission was more to save the fauna, not the people anyway.
I thought the books implied that, too? Treebeard thought the Uruk-Hai might be Saruamn’s Man-Orc crossbreed, anyway.
The Wizards knew they were Maiar, in the sense of being quasi-divine beings sent from Valinor by somewhat-more divine beings to help Middle-earth. I think their “forgetfulness” was more along the line of some things being Beyond The Grasp Of Mortal Ken; our Wizards couldn’t remember the experience of being timeless, bodiless beings while they were embedded in permanent flesh-and-blood bodies.
Well, that depends on which of Tolkien’s writings you’re reading at the time. He kinda waffled on whether the brown and blue wizards were complete failures or were doing Important Things offscreen.
I don’t think that the staves have power, per se. Rather, they’re more symbols of authority. It’s one thing to have power; it’s another to have the authority to use that power, and in Tolkien’s world, that matters. That’s also why, for instance, Aragorn is more effective with the Palantir than Pippin is, because he’s its legitimate owner by right of inheritance, and so he has the authority to use it.
And when Gandalf the White asserts his newfound authority over Saruman the Many-Colored, he breaks Saruman’s staff.
Yes, true, but I am kinda taking all we know, all the scribblings, notes and writings.
At one time Chris had seemed to imply that Radagast and the two Blues had failed but later on he found notes which implied the opposite.
It’s our best guess that the two Blues did something terribly important in the far East but died, and that Radagast’s main mission was the animals, and stayed on long to help them- not really a failure.
Tolkien makes the point in LoTR that actions across Middle-Earth have consequences. If Smaug had not been defeated (for example) the War of the Ring could have been much worse for Gondor, et al. It’s by no means impossible that the other Wizards’ actions successfully kept Sauron from getting more allies, even if we don’t see it happen.
