I’ve got one.
Which two towers are “The Two Towers”? It seems like the book focuses on goings on at Isengard and Minas Tirith. But, maybe it’s the two towers good and evil are amassing at for the War of the Ring, Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. Or then again, Maybe the two towers that evil forces are amassing at, Isengard and Minas Morgul. Anyone?
There’s no real agreement about the title “The Two Towers”, as, I believe, the title was not a creation of Tolkien’s. The end blurb in the book claims it is Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul (IIRC). The movie is emphasizing that it is Orthanc and Barad-dur.
Equipoise, to get the concept of “going West”, you really have to read The Silmarillion, as it’s fairly complex. In short, the West (Aman, or The Undying Land) is basically paradise, the Valar (sort of like gods, as it were) live there, and the Elves feel drawn there, and eventually pass that way, either by sailing or dying. When Elves die (they’re not immortal, but they are ageless. They can be slain or die by their own will) their spirits go there to wait in the Halls of Mandos, and are sometimes allowed to return to Middle-Earth. After the Numenoreans attempted to sail west to Aman the Valar changed the shape of the world, from flat to round, and made Aman no longer part of the world, sailing west only brings you around to the other side of the word, now. Only the Elves retain the ability to sail the “straight path” to Aman.
all I have to say is thanks, and wow
Well not really
I am still working on reading this thread so bare with me here-
If Galadriel had taken the ring would she be more powerful than Sauron? Would it turn her evil?
When Frodo put the ring on he was invisible, But in the movie the Nazgul could see him(I think) Why is that?
Is there anyway to get rid of the Nazgul? they really didn’t seem to like being set on fire too much.
The concept of “Two Towers” as a symbol for contention between good and evil is developed in a number of contexts, in Silmarillion, and the LOTR. An earlier tower named Minas Tirith (the tower of guard) was raised by Fingolfin, during the conflict with Morgoth, who had rebuilt his tower, called Thangrorodrim. Later in Arnor, the Numenoreans raise towers at Amon Sul, and Anuminas. Angmar (whose witch king becomes the chief Nazgul) defeated the Numenoreans at Amon Sul. (later called Weathertop.) Again at Minas Anor and Minas Ithil, in Gondor the towers of the sun and moon. One, Minas Ithil is taken by treachery, and becomes Minas Morgul, (tower of sorcery) again a tower of good, and one fallen to evil.
Angrenost, the fortress of Iron was called Isengard by the Rohirrim. Originally it was a western outpost of the realm of Gondor. It too falls to evil, by treachery. In my thinking the opposing tower to Isengard is Caras Galadon, the city of the trees, where Galadriel remains faithful. (Also a good vs. evil counterpoint, along with its intensely living and natural character, against the perversion of Isengard into a mechanical monstrosity.)
Barad Dur is the ultimate seat of evil at the time of the rings. It’s true opposite is Meneltarma, the sole remaining physical shard of Numenor, where the Hallows of Eru survive. Or perhaps Ilmarin, on Taniquetil, the White Mansions of the Valar, on the highest peak in Aman, although that was at first built to guard opposite the first Thangorodrim, across the wide sea.
Tris
Hell, Frodo would have been more powerful than Sauron, had he given in to the Ring’s temptations. He (and Galadriel) would also have been irredeemably corrupted by it. No one, not Galadriel, not Gandalf, not Elrond, could withstand the Ring’s Siren call. Except Tom Bombadil, of course, but no one knows what he was.
When worn, the Ring pulls the wearer into a sort of spirit world, which has the side effect of making him invisibile. The Nazgul are spirits themselves, and not only exsist in both worlds at the same time, but are actually stronger in the “other” world.
Well, one way of doing this would be to destroy the One Ring. Since they derived their powers from the nine lesser rings, which in turn derive their powers from the One Ring, destroying it would probably destroy the Nazgul, as well.
Destroying their physical forms (as with fire, or by dashing them to pieces by magically flooding a river) is a major set back for them, but not a permanent death. Their spirits, harmless and incorporeal, must return to Mordor to have new bodies created for them, which takes some time.
There’s also a prophecy about how to kill the lead Nazgul, which I always thought was a bit obvious.
More powerful than Sauron if he had the Ring? No. More powerful than Sauron without the Ring. Yes. Would it turn her to evil? Yes, the Ring’s corrupting power if used is irresistable (except Bombadil, but he’s a special case).
**
The Ring draws the wearer partly into the “Spirit World”. The Ringwraiths exist primarily in the Sprit world. They can’t see very well into the material world. This is also why Frodo can see them while wearing the Ring, and also he is partly brought into the spirit world by the Morgul knife wound, which is why he could see Glorfindel (in the movie Arwen) in something of a radiant aspect, as Elves also exist partly in the spirit world.
**
Well, fire and flooding seem to get rid of them for a while, but a more permanent defeat is much more difficult (If you haven’t read Return of the King yet, you’ll find out.). I imagine the fire couldn’t do them all that much harm, but it certainly could set their clothes on fire, and caused them to flee. More likely they fled because they had accomplished enough by wounding Frodo with the Morgul-knife, which was subsequently foiled by Elrond, when he healed Frodo and withdrew the knife-shard still embedded in Frodo’s flesh.
Prophecy? feel free to spoil it for me, as it will be years before I ever read the silmarillion, or anything else as am addicted to the SDMB
And on top of that, What do you all think Tom Bombadil is?
Deadly Nightlight: The prophecy, basically, goes like this:
He cannot die at the hands of any man. Of course, this leaves him wide open to a sucker punch by a woman, and a hobbit.
[sub]Dunno if the spoiler tags are needed in this thread, by now, but I’ll err on the side of caution.[/sub]
Here’s a take on the Bombadil thing. Very comprehensive and detailed.
Well, briefly:
The Valar, along with the Maiar, enter Arda (the world) and begin creating the physical expression of the song of the Ainur, before the world was made. In the center of the realm they build two lamps, on high towers to light the world. Melkor begins perverting everything they do. The struggle is so titanic that much of the early beauty of Arda is marred forever, especially those things deep in the earth, and in the far north, where fire, and ice are exploited by Melkor. In the end, the Valar have their first home destroyed by Melkor, when he throws down the towers of the lanterns, and causes the earth to be broken. The Valar end up chaining Melkor up in Mandos for a very long time. Eventually they let him out, and he plays nice for a while, and then slips off alone while no one is paying attention. (Evidently, the Valar are not big on paying attention to things for long periods.)
The world has been broken, and the Valar decide to move into the western lands, over the sea. There they establish the realm of Aman, and bless it. They grow two trees there, which provide, in their flowers and fruits a new source of light for the world. The light drips from the trees, and is gathered up in pools. The lands of the west remain in darkness. Elbereth has pity upon the Children of Iluvatar who are prophesied to come into Arda in the eastern lands. (Called by the Valar, the Quendi, meaning those who speak) She takes up some of the light and splashes it out into the sky, making stars to light the darkness for the Elves, when they come. For this she is revered greatly by the Elves.
Orome, one of the Valar meets three kindreds of elves in Middle Earth, while on a hunting trip. He brings their leaders back to Aman with him, to see the blessed Realm, and meet with the rest of the Valar, and Maiar. The are Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe, The kindreds are the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri. The leaders return to Middle earth and lead their people back to Aman. All the ones who made it back and saw the light of the two trees were the Caliquendi, the elves of the light. The ones who did not go were the Morequendi, the elves of darkness.
The three kindreds did not travel together, and only the Vanyar went directly to Aman, and remained. The Noldor went a bit more slowly, and eventually a great number of them returned, for reasons important to the history of elves, and men. The Teleri took their sweet time going, got split up, when their king wandered off into the woods and ended up holding hands with a Maia named Melian for long enough that the trees grew tall, while they just stood there. (OK, I take back the part about not paying attention to things for a long time.) So, half the Teleri remained behind, and the rest set off for Aman on their own with the first kings brother. They never really quite made it, though, and were given an island just off the coast of Aman, and some of the land on its outside coast to live on. They did see the light of the trees, though, and are considered Caliquendi. They also made some nifty boats.
The elven king who stayed behind, Elwe Singollo, was later known as Elu Thingol, and he established a hidden kingdom in Middle Earth. Melian the Maia established an enchantment that hid it, and prevented anything from entering it, unless Thingol wanted it to.
Not long after this (well, not long in elvish terms) Melkor comes back, with a nasty friend, and kills the two trees, kills the king of the Noldor, and steals the prized possession of Feanor, the badest assed elf of all time. (Except maybe Fingolfin, depending on how you view such things.) Feanor renames Melkor Morgoth, and speaks the dreaded Oath of Feanor. Much sorrow ensues, including yet another war by the Valar, and yet another land or two dropped into the depths of the sea. (note: Do not fuck with the Valar.)
The elves came back to Middle Earth in order not to miss out on all the fun. The Teleri got used, and some of them killed during this, as did a goodly number of the Noldor. Men end up being involved, and also got to die in large numbers as well. It all ends with Morgoth being kicked out of Arda entirely, and the Valar letting the Noldor come back to Aman if they want. Several thousand years later, the last of them do so, bringing with them a Hobbit, of all things.
I had to leave out a lot of the good stuff, in order to explain the going west thing.
Tris
Why was Saurons ring so powerful? Was it because he put all his evil stuff in it? Why couldn’t someone else create a good powerful ring to fight it?
Hooray! I fianlly get to say that I worked it out. Elrond is 56.25% Elf, 37.5% human and 6.25% Maia.
Osiris, you really should get out more.
Hmm. Well, a few things here:
In Tolkien’s world, everything is always getting gradually worse. Wisdom diminishes year by year, beautiful things fade, heroes become smaller. So, by this time, no one any longer has the knowledge to craft such an artifact.
It’s not strictly a matter of bad-ring vs. good-ring, like some sort of “fire sword” evenly canceling out the power of an enemy’s “ice sword.” The One Ring’s power is the power to bend wills, to dominate, to control. What would fight that? The three elven rings come pretty close (except that they suffer the catch of having a major hacker security hole whenever the one ring is in use)–they sustain beauty and kindle hope. They protect Rivendell and Lothlorien, maintaining them as bastions of freedom against the domination of Sauron. They just aren’t strong enough on their own, though, and are useless when the One is wielded.
Few powerful figures are left to confront Sauron. Sauron was possibly one of the strongest of all the Maia, and even Gandalf–the champion of the Valar in this matter–beheld him with terror. So you’d need someone with some SERIOUS mojo to invest even more of his own power into an anti-ring in order to counter Sauron. But by this point in history, the greatest lords of Men and Elves have perished (defeating Sauron the first time around) and the only good Maia in Middle Earth–the wizards like Gandalf–have been ordered not to confront Sauron directly; they have been sent by the Valar merely to rally the forces of good to fight, not to do the fighting for them.
I was also under the impression (and PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong) that (a) the One Ring contained a vast amount of Sauron’s power and that (b) Sauron without the One Ring had at the time of LOTR reestablished a good portion of that power by learning and developing his powers. Without the One Ring, he was still a formidable enemy (much moreso than just after he had lost the One Ring). With the One Ring, he would become much, much more powerful than he had ever been previously.
Sorta?
Quoth Deadly Nightlight:
This is sort of what Saruman claimed to be doing, and he did indeed forge a Ring of Power (although probably a weaker one than the One, Three, Seven, or Nine). But of course, his motivations were slightly less than pure.
Aside from Sauron himself, Saruman was the leading authority on ring-lore at the time, and he rather discouraged anyone else from looking into such matters too deeply.
And Osiris, if you think you’re all that, how exactly were Aragorn and Arwen related?
Arwen is the daughter of Elrond. Elros, Elrond’s brother was the first king of Numenor, having chosen the doom of men. His descendants ruled Numenor for twenty six generations (over three thousand years). Among those descendants, although not a king himself, was Elendil, who was spared from the downfall of Numenor, and came to middle earth, to found the realms of Arnor and Gondor with his sons, Isildur, and Ararion. Isildur died at the end of the second age. Then, 2931 years later, Isildur’s direct descendent, Aragorn was born. Probably forty seven generations removed from his many greats grandfather Elendil. So, Arwen is his first cousin, sixty nine times removed. (Or thereabouts.)
Tris
You might want to consider the following information as a spoiler for the 3rd movie. I wouldn’t think so but some people get grumpy.
From Appendix A of The Return of the King, 50th Anniversary Edition and The Silmarillion. And this site to fill in that one generation. Does this mean I get a bag of chips? If I managed not to screw it up.
She is his 1st cousin 47 times removed. Like so.
Descendants of Earendil
Generation No. 1
Children of EARENDIL and ELWING are:
2. i. ELROND 2.
3. ii. ELROS.
Generation No. 2
Child of ELROND is:
i. ARWEN 3, m. ARAGORN II.
Child of ELROS is:
4. i. VARDAMIR 3.
snipped to save space
Generation No. 49
Child of ARATHORN II is:
i. ARAGORN II 50, m. ARWEN.
You know I’m very disappointed in that site. They have the wrong Boromir as the father of Bregor. The one from the Fellowship not the son og