No. My point is that this particular error of judgment was both serious and easily remedied. Again: akin to refusing to treat eczema because your religion forbids it. I don’t think I’m immune to all possible errors of judgment.
So, just out of curiosity, what should we do to diagnose it? Brain scans on every toddler?
Sure, but I wonder if the parents were capable of realising that, from where they were.
Does that sort of awareness start that early? I ask that because I’ve raised 4 kids and that never came up as a topic of conversation, or any questions about personal physical gender and supposed gender roles. At least, not that I can recall. It probably would have made an impression if they did.
Of course, they had some passing curiosity about bodies and the like, and the differences, but beyond that they seemed to be oblivious and disinterested.
It’s just difficult for me to imagine someone that young (say 4 or 5 years old) being so cognizant or worldly enough to think that their physical gender is a component of their being, let alone questioning it or thinking it inappropriate. Usually they are just busy playing and going about kid life.
Obviously, some kids do notice and think about it. It just seems so odd to be that early. That’s earlier than I would expect.
But I guess that’s where the divide occurs. It’s outside of the experience of most folks and hard to grok.
Maybe not. And that makes them shitty parents, if not shitty people.
Bump, hoping that Smapti will respond.
But it’s clear some gender tendencies are biologically ingrained into us. I would argue most of the gender distinctions in our society are the direct result of these biological differences. There is, of course, a continuum, but sexual behavior is at the root of all societal behavior (if you want to go Freudian), and ultimately we are bound to our “penis or vagina” dichotomy as human beings.
Seems to me that you’ve answered your own question, then.
He is a man, because he was born a man and will always be a man.
Just in the same way that a man who was born a man and believes himself to be a woman, for whatever reasons unto which I am completely sympathetic, will always be a man.
Those aren’t analagous, because in the second situation, the person’s gender is female. Read up on the differences between gender and sex – I already gave you a good starting point.
If a person’s gender is different from and independent of their sex, then why is hormone therapy and surgery considered integral to transgender therapy?
If they’re as completely independent and unrelated to each other as you assert, then there’s absolutely no reason why a woman can’t have a penis or a man have a vagina, so why is this treatment prescribed at all?
While I agree it’s not a necessary or sufficient condition for being trans, stuff like this can be indicative. Like it or not, we live in a society with certain gender roles and traits. Some of them may be silly or arbitrary or nonsensical, but they exist.
It’s true that just because someone breaks or queers these gender roles, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. However, someone who has their real identity tied up in the opposite gender as what they’re treated as is going to try and express that gender. How do you do that? By emulating what you observe as normal for the other gender.
I’m sure there are probably transgirl tomboys out there, and as transgender becomes increasingly normalized in society such a thing may manifest more frequently. We also shouldn’t jump to trans conclusions just because a girl likes “boy stuff”. However, if a boy is adamant about wanting girl clothes or toys in concert with outright asserting they’re a girl (or vice versa), I think it can be treated as reasonable corroborating evidence.
Because that is what, after decades of experimentation and testing, tends to work best for the people that want it.
They’re not always completely independent and unrelated, but those procedures (which aren’t performed for every single transgender person) can be helpful for those that desire it.
So, again, your understanding of transgender people is deficient.
Because those that seek it would prefer to have their body match as much as possible their personal identity, and for some that includes biological and physical alteration.
It’s a bit of an odd question. “Why would you want to appear like who you are to yourself and others, when you don’t?” I can’t imagine what it would be like to be transgender. But if I woke up one morning and found myself in a completely different body - even if that body was male in sex, as I am gender-wise - I would want my body back, even though who I am has not changed.
But this again falls back on the assumption that one’s personal identity is intrinsically tied to their body form - which, if gender is a mental state not tied to body form, it shouldn’t.
So what is gender?
So what about this:
Is it still your position that referring to an MtF individual as a “man” is a lie?
Wrong. Some people don’t feel comfortable with the body they have and want to change it. Their gender is already set, even if it doesn’t match their biological sex, and they just prefer that their biological sex matches their gender. So a transgender woman is already female, and already a woman – and it’s up to her if she wants to change her body so her body is also female.
Gender is the set of social and cultural norms/behaviors associated with certain sexes. Some cultures even have 3 or 4 genders (the third/fourth is often close to genderqueer or transexuality, see the Two-Spirit wiki page. I learned about this in an anthropology course as the “berdache” role that shamans took in the kutenai tribe).
As a general rule in debate, when one side stoops to asking for a definition of a word which they could easily find in a dictionary, it is a sign.
No, it doesn’t.
A light and hopefully not offensive analogy (and I apologise sincerely if anyone is offended by it); I am a fan of a football team. Whether or not I am wearing a jersey of my favourite football team, or have a tattoo of my favourite player, or wear facepaint when I go to their games, I am a fan. Those are all things that I might choose to do because I am a fan - but I might not. And if I do not that doesn’t mean that I am not a fan. My personal identity as a fan might lead me to particular outward expressions of that identity, but that doesn’t mean that those expressions are* intrinsic* to my identity.