Good Hair

[Nzinga_Seated]

Freudian and gaffa, I understand that. I only made the statement because Equipoise said, “He didn’t make it for white folks. He made it for his daughter…” I have no problem understanding that people are inspired by personal things to make art. But I remain wary of Hollywood blacks that tell black people’s story for a mainly white audience.

Take for instance, a quote he said in an interview about the movie, (I am at work, will try to link to the youtube clip once I get home.) In the interview, he said he thought of making the movie when he heard his daughter say to her white friend, “you got good hair”.

Ok, I am not calling him a liar. I swear I’m not. But! In all my 36 years, I have never heard a black person refer to a white person’s hair as ‘good’. Now, I know that due to the society’s emphasis on white beauty standards, many black kids would choose the white dolly over the black…we still have issues. But the story of black people is so complex. Little nuances like the fact that we don’t call white hair ‘good’ hair, actually matter. If it becomes ‘common knowledge’ that black kids want white hair, then guess what? Black kids will begin to want white hair, thinking that is just how it is. It’s not like that. It is more layered.

There is such a thing in our culture, as a struggle with our hair. It has changed a great deal in recent years, but in my youth, talk of good hair vs. bad hair was definitely a hot topic.

But ‘good’ hair was *mixed *hair. Period. Always. If your hair was soft, wavy, and easy to comb, people told you that you had good hair. It was something unique to black people. See, lots of black people with two black parents had this so-called ‘good hair’. And of course, many mixed kids that we accepted into our community as black had it. I have never ever in my life heard a black person refer to a white person’s hair as good.

I looked at that interview and thought, “If one wanted to exploit certain white people’s ideas of black self-loathing, one could play the angle that in the black community, good hair = white people hair”

I have some issues about black representation in the media. The black ghettos are very complex and rich places. When I see black people begin to rise up in Hollywood and start speaking for all black people, I go right ahead and speak what I know about black people in the ghetto. My voice won’t sell movie tickets, but I will always tell the truth about black culture as I know it, especially black ghetto culture.

He has every right to make his movies. I certainly won’t stop him. But I always keep a skeptical eye on black people who portray our story to the nation in ways that I think miss the mark. I will probably see the movie after all… just so I can make it a point to debunk whatever myths I think he may be perpetuating to anyone that will listen to my annoying voice.

*And of course, these views reflect my own perceptions, experiences and issues. I don’t speak for all black people, and my views are probably not actually representitive of black people in general. *

[Monstera_deliciosa]

@Nzinga_Seated

Freudian and gaffa, I understand that. I only made the statement because Equipoise said, “He didn’t make it for white folks. He made it for his daughter…” I have no problem understanding that people are inspired by personal things to make art. But I remain wary of Hollywood blacks that tell black people’s story for a mainly white audience.

Take for instance, a quote he said in an interview about the movie, (I am at work, will try to link to the youtube clip once I get home.) In the interview, he said he thought of making the movie when he heard his daughter say to her white friend, “you got good hair”.

Ok, I am not calling him a liar. I swear I’m not. But! In all my 36 years, I have never heard a black person refer to a white person’s hair as ‘good’. Now, I know that due to the society’s emphasis on white beauty standards, many black kids would choose the white dolly over the black…we still have issues. But the story of black people is so complex. Little nuances like the fact that we don’t call white hair ‘good’ hair, actually matter. If it becomes ‘common knowledge’ that black kids want white hair, then guess what? Black kids will begin to want white hair, thinking that is just how it is. It’s not like that. It is more layered.

There is such a thing in our culture, as a struggle with our hair. It has changed a great deal in recent years, but in my youth, talk of good hair vs. bad hair was definitely a hot topic.

But ‘good’ hair was *mixed *hair. Period. Always. If your hair was soft, wavy, and easy to comb, people told you that you had good hair. It was something unique to black people. See, lots of black people with two black parents had this so-called ‘good hair’. And of course, many mixed kids that we accepted into our community as black had it. I have never ever in my life heard a black person refer to a white person’s hair as good.

I looked at that interview and thought, “If one wanted to exploit certain white people’s ideas of black self-loathing, one could play the angle that in the black community, good hair = white people hair”

I have some issues about black representation in the media. The black ghettos are very complex and rich places. When I see black people begin to rise up in Hollywood and start speaking for all black people, I go right ahead and speak what I know about black people in the ghetto. My voice won’t sell movie tickets, but I will always tell the truth about black culture as I know it, especially black ghetto culture.

He has every right to make his movies. I certainly won’t stop him. But I always keep a skeptical eye on black people who portray our story to the nation in ways that I think miss the mark. I will probably see the movie after all… just so I can make it a point to debunk whatever myths I think he may be perpetuating to anyone that will listen to my annoying voice.

*And of course, these views reflect my own perceptions, experiences and issues. I don’t speak for all black people, and my views are probably not actually representitive of black people in general. *

I’m glad you added your final disclaimer; it will make my post all that much shorter. The fact that you haven’t heard something in all your 36 years doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. In fact, you are just young enough to have been spared a certain degree of the baggage that some of us dealt with. By the early 70s, black people who hadn’t felt that way before really started to internalize “Black is Beautiful.” I’m a little older (49) and I can say that when I was a small child, although I never said it aloud (I was taught not to share our hair bidness with white folks) I certainly thought of my white playmates’ hair as “good hair.” And I didn’t pluck that opinion out thin air; it came from what I heard at home.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@Monstera_deliciosa

The fact that you haven’t heard something in all your 36 years doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I couldn’t agree more.

[zamboniracer]

I’ve been meaning to see this movie and shame on me for not having done so already. I’ll certainly have to rent it.

As a middle aged white guy I’m fortunate enough to count a few AA women as friends and the amount of work they have to do on, and to endure, for their hair just mystifies me. Once my one friend, unbeknownst to me, was wearing a weave and when I complemented her on how nice her hair looked she too mock umbrage at me for not realizing that it wasn’t her real hair. Now I just keep my mouth shut on the topic.

[Cat_Whisperer]

Here’s a link to the Chris Rock documentary site.

I’m having mixed emotions about this documentary; on the one hand, yeah, be proud of your hair, tell the story of the hair of your people, etc., but on the other hand, maybe teach your daughter that there are more important things in the world than her hair and her looks.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@Cat_Whisperer

Here’s a link to the Chris Rock documentary site.

I’m having mixed emotions about this documentary; on the one hand, yeah, be proud of your hair, tell the story of the hair of your people, etc., but on the other hand, maybe teach your daughter that there are more important things in the world than her hair and her looks.

Well, imagine that you grew up in a society that prized looks that was totally opposite from yours.

I’m black = white is beautiful
My hair is course = straight hair is prized
My eyes are brown = blue eyes are better
My butt and hips and thighs are large = slim and lanky is better
my lips are big = (until collogen injections made big lips possible for stars popular) big lips are mocked

etc, etc. I can see why a dad would want to assure his little girl she is beautiful. So many ways to give that assurance. But I cast a skeptical eye at upper-class black people telling black people’s story to white America. Many other ways to assure your daughter she is beautiful.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Nzinga_Seated

Well, imagine that you grew up in a society that prized looks that was totally opposite from yours.

I’m black = white is beautiful
My hair is course = straight hair is prized
My eyes are brown = blue eyes are better
My butt and hips and thighs are large = slim and lanky is better
my lips are big = (until collogen injections made big lips possible for stars popular) big lips are mocked

etc, etc. I can see why a dad would want to assure his little girl she is beautiful. So many ways to give that assurance. But I cast a skeptical eye at upper-class black people telling black people’s story to white America. Many other ways to assure your daughter she is beautiful.

But what if you don’t just want to do it by telling her she’s beautiful but by changing the system and making white people who take things for granted really think? I’m nonwhite but not African American (South Asian) and I definitely have felt a lot of what you’ve discussed, though not to that degree, and I think it’s important to not just limit your statements…but to reach out to a broader audience. To make everyone understand and hear the message.

[CrazyCatLady]

@Nzinga_Seated

But I cast a skeptical eye at upper-class black people telling black people’s story to white America.

Honest question: how else do you expect such stories to reach the general public, which is by virtue of sheer numbers predominantly white? You don’t want white people to tell them, you don’t want rich black people to tell them, poor black people don’t have the resources to tell them to such a wide audience…it kind of sounds like you think these stories shouldn’t be told at all, or that they should be pigeonholed for black people only. I certainly hope I’ve misunderstood you, as I think either would be a grave disservice to both the stories and the audience.

[Monstera_deliciosa]

@Nzinga_Seated

But I cast a skeptical eye at upper-class black people telling black people’s story to white America. Many other ways to assure your daughter she is beautiful.

Chris Rock is upper-class now, by virtue of his success in the entertainment industry. But he grew up in the Bedford-Stuvysent section of Brookyn, which is certainly a working class, predominately black neighborhood, and is the son of a truck driver. While he certainly wasn’t indigent, I don’t think his childhood was in any way privileged, and I certainly think that unless he is suffering from amnesia, he can speak from the point of view of “ordinary” black people, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

Even if he were was born to privilege, upper-class black people are still black, and their experiences are a valid part of the total black experience. Your repeated implication that black folk who don’t come from the 'hood are somehow inauthentic, is working on my last nerve.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@CrazyCatLady

Honest question: how else do you expect such stories to reach the general public, which is by virtue of sheer numbers predominantly white? You don’t want white people to tell them, you don’t want rich black people to tell them, poor black people don’t have the resources to tell them to such a wide audience…it kind of sounds like you think these stories shouldn’t be told at all, or that they should be pigeonholed for black people only. I certainly hope I’ve misunderstood you, as I think either would be a grave disservice to both the stories and the audience.

I would love for the true story of black people in this nation to be told, for anyone that honestly wants to hear it; not just point comfort themselves in their own need to feel superior to others.

If white people want to hear the true story of black people, go into the ghettos. Get aquainted with black people, (not just ghetto blacks, but middle class, southern, rural, whatever). Listen to the music, read the poetry. Check out the hip hop. And even watch the movies. I have no problem with movies and documentaries about black people. As long as I believe the movies are honest and not exploitive. I am a serious skeptic about black people that exploit the fact that there are people out there that don’t know the real deal about black people. It is a shame that they get fed Hollywood’s nonsense and then think they have an understanding. But to me, the real shame is that the little black kids in the ghetto begin to be affected by misinformation about who they are.

[Cat_Fight]

@Cat_Whisperer

Here’s a link to the Chris Rock documentary site.

I’m having mixed emotions about this documentary; on the one hand, yeah, be proud of your hair, tell the story of the hair of your people, etc., but on the other hand, maybe teach your daughter that there are more important things in the world than her hair and her looks.

In an ideal world, maybe. But, as with The Princess and the Frog, sometimes kids just need to feel like they fit in somewhere. At the most fundamental level, they just have to see some variant of themselves reflected somewhere. Anywhere. I’m no fan of the modeling industry and when people criticize designers for only using white models part of me thinks ‘Yeah! Every girl should have the same right to starve herself to get work and feel bad about her body!’ But unless we are going to get rid of objectifying ads and fashion magazines tomorrow morning, I think there is some benefit to making their definition of beauty more inclusive.

[Broomstick]

@Nzinga_Seated

But I remain wary of Hollywood blacks that tell black people’s story for a mainly white audience.

Just to clarify - are you worried about exploitation of black culture for profit? In the sense that someone is giving a distorted version for profit? Or do you think white people shouldn’t be going to “black” movies?

Quite a few of us white folks are savvy enough to pick up on distortions, stereotypes, and unflattering portrayals. I don’t pretend to have a visceral understanding of the nuances of culture that isn’t mine, but I’m hardly entirely blind to the above.

In the interview, he said he thought of making the movie when he heard his daughter say to her white friend, “you got good hair”.

Ok, I am not calling him a liar. I swear I’m not. But! In all my 36 years, I have never heard a black person refer to a white person’s hair as ‘good’.

What I found interesting was that a black girl and a white girl were discussing hair at all. Back when I was that young (late 60’s/early 70’s) you just did NOT discuss hair with a person of another race. Even commenting on it to another person of your own race, particularly one’s older female relatives, would result in a “Hush! Don’t talk about that!” or even a slap. It was treated exactly the same way as comments about the disabled were! And that was wrong because it sent the message there was something “wrong” with black people in a subtle, nasty way that, looking back on it, I find horrifying. The first time I ever talked to anyone outside my own race about hair was when I was living in a college dorm - and that was mostly with Asians. The African-American girls just never discussed their hair with anyone else. The also easily spent 5 times as much time on it as anyone else. And 10 times as much money.

Personally, the fact that these days black women and white women (of any age) can actually talk about their respective hair care routines is an advance over my youth.

If it becomes ‘common knowledge’ that black kids want white hair, then guess what? Black kids will begin to want white hair, thinking that is just how it is. It’s not like that. It is more layered.

I agree, it’s a simplification that it distills down to “black kids want white hair”, but I have been told by some of my black friends that they envied me my straight hair, or my naturally light colored hair. I didn’t interpret this as them saying “I want to be white” but I think they had a perception that my hair was less of a pain in the ass to manage and less expensive and society at large considered it better than theirs. I don’t think they wanted to be white, but they wanted some of the perceived advantages of being white, such as less harassment by police or store security. or perceived advantages in the work world. Much like I’ve occasionally envied men - not because I want to be a man, but because they still have real advantages in the world today.

I looked at that interview and thought, “If one wanted to exploit certain white people’s ideas of black self-loathing, one could play the angle that in the black community, good hair = white people hair”

Personally, I’d prefer to reserve judgment before seeing the actual documentary. On the other hand, you have more personal reasons for your feelings in regard to the whole topic.

My voice won’t sell movie tickets, but I will always tell the truth about black culture as I know it, especially black ghetto culture.

As well you should. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood and my current city of residence, Gary, Indiana is 84% African-American. I agree, the black culture is far more diverse and complex that portrayed by the media, but few white people will live in such a place. Many are actually afraid to go into Gary. While there are certainly dangerous areas - as in any city of any racial makeup - there’s a lot more to it than just “Michale Jackson’s birthplace”.

*And of course, these views reflect my own perceptions, experiences and issues. I don’t speak for all black people, and my views are probably not actually representitive of black people in general. *

I think part of the problem is even thinking that any one person could speak for all black people. I certainly would be quite upset at someone claiming to speak for all white people - one person just can’t do that for a major slice of humanity such as represented by a racial grouping. I remember back in the 60’s/70’s hearing people wanting black people “explained” to them. Well, they’re people and just as variable as anyone else - in some areas even more varied than white people.

@Nzinga_Seated

I would love for the true story of black people in this nation to be told, for anyone that honestly wants to hear it; not just point comfort themselves in their own need to feel superior to others.

While I think the “feel superior” meme is out there, it’s not always why white people are interested in learning about black people. Some of us just genuinely want to know about the people who live next door to us.

I have no problem with movies and documentaries about black people. As long as I believe the movies are honest and not exploitive. I am a serious skeptic about black people that exploit the fact that there are people out there that don’t know the real deal about black people. It is a shame that they get fed Hollywood’s nonsense and then think they have an understanding.

Please clarify - have you actually seen Rock’s movie or not? Seems to me that if you haven’t you might be making assumptions that aren’t warranted. Frankly, if it IS an accurate, solid documentary having it become a commercial success might be a good thing.

But to me, the real shame is that the little black kids in the ghetto begin to be affected by misinformation about who they are.

The real shame to me is that there are still black people who feel that the yardstick they are measured against is “white people”.

I remember one occasion where, frustrated with my own hair, I muttered something about cutting it off and shaving my head or getting a buzzcut. One of my work friends, trying to help, started making recommendation about such things and I finally told her that I just didn’t think that such cuts looked good on white women, it didn’t fit with my ethnicity and I’d be worried about negative perceptions and harassment. She just stopped in her verbal tracks - it had never occurred to her that white women weren’t perfectly free in regards to hair, that we have our own issues and constraints. I still think it’s a much bigger issue in the black community, but dislike of one’s hair isn’t exclusive to black women, it’s common to all women at some time regardless of their race or ethnicity. White women, too, are subject to media bullshit that make us try to maintain impossible standards or alter ourselves in ways that may be harmful to us even if the details are different. It’s something we actually have in common. The more we have in common the more likely we are just to see each other as people and not those strange aliens who live across the street.

Oh, gosh - there’s the 60’s liberal in me waxing all peace and tolerance again. Anyhow, Nzinga, Seated, keep voicing your viewpoint.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@Broomstick

Please clarify - have you actually seen Rock’s movie or not? Seems to me that if you haven’t you might be making assumptions that aren’t warranted. Frankly, if it IS an accurate, solid documentary having it become a commercial success might be a good thing.

I appreciate your post. I will only respond to this though. The rest of your points are well taken.

I have not seen the movie. The comment you quoted was referrring to representations in the media that I HAVE seen and that cause me and black folks I know to roll our eyes and say, “Oh pleeeease”. We do it all the time.

I know that white people want to learn about black culture. More power to them. But I shall always look skeptically on black people that that attempt to to tell the story to white people…I am watching to see if they are being honest or exploitive. If I get the sense that they are being exploitive, I will lay my own opinion down, and hope to balance things a tiny bit in my own tiny way.

Simple. No one is saying white folks can’t watch black documentaries. Or movies. Or look up Gallup polls on what black folks are really thinking. I am just stating that the idea that a little black girl would say to a little white girl these days, “you have good hair” sounds…really odd to me.

[gaffa]

@Nzinga_Seated

Ok, I am not calling him a liar. I swear I’m not. But! In all my 36 years, I have never heard a black person refer to a white person’s hair as ‘good’.

Earlier, I linked to a site devoted to the history of Valmor Products, which was the leader in black hair and beauty products prior to the rise of Johnson. I first learned about this company when Terry Zwigoff wrote and illustrated a story about collecting these product - the packaging was unique and had amazing graphics. You can still see some examples in Mexican neighborhood candle shops, where they sell “Lucky”, “Holy”, “Love Me” and “Money” candles (there is one right next to the Kedzie stop on Chicago’s Brown Line" with these candles in the window.)

An ad from the 1930s told the story of a young black couple who could have found love with each other, except for their “bad hair”. It is complicated that this ad was designed by an Italian man for a company owned by a Jewish man, but the ad was in a African-American paper to sell hair treatments to straighten black hair. If the words “bad hair” hadn’t resonated, it wouldn’t have been in the ad.

I’d scan the ad if I were home with my collection of Weirdo magazines, where Zwigoff’s article appeared.

Now, I know that due to the society’s emphasis on white beauty standards, many black kids would choose the white dolly over the black…we still have issues. But the story of black people is so complex. Little nuances like the fact that we don’t call white hair ‘good’ hair, actually matter. If it becomes ‘common knowledge’ that black kids want white hair, then guess what? Black kids will begin to want white hair, thinking that is just how it is. It’s not like that. It is more layered.

It’s more general than that. In my experience, most women want different hair. Women with straight hair want curly. Women with curly hair want straight.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@gaffa

If the words “bad hair” hadn’t resonated, it wouldn’t have been in the ad.

I’m not saying there is no such concept of bad hair. Gaffa, I can’t do the whole repeating my points over and over again thing. In this thread, I have stated that black kids telling white kids they have good hair is not something that really happens that I have ever seen even once. Any time I see someone stating something has happened in the black community that I have never witnessed a single, solitary time in all of my decades entirely submerged in black culture, I am going to say, “Whoa. This sounds fishy.”

[Equipoise]

So, basically, you are calling Chris Rock a liar.

[Freudian_Slit]

@gaffa

I’m pulling this out of my ass, but I’d wager the majority of documentaries don’t recoup their investment. Michael Moore and Morgan Spurlock are the rare exception, and I don’t resent someone as talented as Chris Rock joining that group. I think he’s testing the waters, and has the talent to make a really powerful movie about race (which he touched on with the part in the barbershop with the one guy who said he liked dating white girls).

I was thinking of both Michael Moore and Morton Spurlock when I saw it, actually. They both come off as really aggressive whereas Chris Rock seemed so much more natural, relaxed. I guess maybe because their whole thing is making documentaries, they feel they have something more to prove whereas for him he’s already pretty established? I dunno. I just felt way more relaxed watching Chris Rock–you get the sense that an interview with Moore or Spurlock would be pretty unpleasant. But Chris Rock always seemed genuinely interested and never condescending to his subjects, no matter what they said–he could criticize but he never patronized or looked down on anyone.

[With_Rye]

@Cat_Whisperer

Here’s a link to the Chris Rock documentary site.

I’m having mixed emotions about this documentary; on the one hand, yeah, be proud of your hair, tell the story of the hair of your people, etc., but on the other hand, maybe teach your daughter that there are more important things in the world than her hair and her looks.

At the end of the documentary, Chris Rock does mention—paraphrasing here—that he hopes to impart on his daughter that what’s on top of their heads is not as important as what’s in their heads.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Nzinga_Seated

Well, imagine that you grew up in a society that prized looks that was totally opposite from yours.

I’m black = white is beautiful
My hair is course = straight hair is prized
My eyes are brown = blue eyes are better
My butt and hips and thighs are large = slim and lanky is better
my lips are big = (until collogen injections made big lips possible for stars popular) big lips are mocked

etc, etc. I can see why a dad would want to assure his little girl she is beautiful. So many ways to give that assurance. But I cast a skeptical eye at upper-class black people telling black people’s story to white America. Many other ways to assure your daughter she is beautiful.

Yeah, I can see that - that’s why I said I have mixed feelings about this documentary. I did grow up in a society/culture that was almost completely absent from the movies, television, and popular magazines and books - Canadian.

[gaffa]

@Freudian_Slit

I was thinking of both Michael Moore and Morton Spurlock when I saw it, actually. They both come off as really aggressive whereas Chris Rock seemed so much more natural, relaxed.

I don’t get that they are aggressive, so much as that they both have a point of view and wish to use a documentary to get that idea across, Moore much more than Spurlock. Did you catch Spurlock’s FX series 30 Days? I wouldn’t say there was any aggression there at all, or in his movie Where In The World Is Osama bin Laden?

I guess maybe because their whole thing is making documentaries, they feel they have something more to prove whereas for him he’s already pretty established?

I’d say that Rock didn’t believe he was any sort of expert on hair. He didn’t have a POV to get across, other than as a father, husband and African-American.

I dunno. I just felt way more relaxed watching Chris Rock–you get the sense that an interview with Moore or Spurlock would be pretty unpleasant.

The only person I’ve ever seen react in that way was the head of Nike, and you could see that the guy was torturing himself - that he had sacrificed everything he had once believed on the alter of profit.

But Chris Rock always seemed genuinely interested and never condescending to his subjects, no matter what they said–he could criticize but he never patronized or looked down on anyone.

I agree about Rock, but I disagree that Moore or Spurlock are all that vicious. I’ve never seen either of them grill a subject to the extent that Jon Stewart did Jim Cramer of Mad Money - or anything comparable to the beating any of the hosts of 60 Minutes could dish out.